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Moving UP a boot size?


zoltan

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UPZ boots fit me great out of the box, the problem is the RC10 is much too stiff for me. It doesn't matter how well the boot fits if it's going to perform like crap for me.

I was researching the UPZ ATB, and it looks like in all likelihood it will be too soft for me.

I already use custom footbeds - Superfeet Korks.

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Zoltan, which liners are you using?

http://www.bomberonline.com/store/accessories/hpd_liner.cfm

The black model here is thinner and lower volume than the red model; black model might be enough to get you more room for your feet if you are using something similar to the red. Over the years, the liners seem to oscillate between thin and thick... the black ones pictured there and the ones that came with the 423's were the thinnest ones that I recall, and the ones that came with the old 325's and the current red ones are the thickest that I've recalled.

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I would guess UPZ would use the same mold for both boots, possibly with a softer plastic for the ATB
Yes, I had the chance to compare these 3 models in a shop. The plastics parts are exactly the same. There is only one mold (per size) for 3 models. Only the plastic stiffness change.

Shell AND tongue are stiffer on RC10 compared to RC10. But it's easy to soften the tongue ...

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Get a plate. Then she'll be right.

Oops, wrong thread.

They've been pretty heavily worked to get my feet to fit, and I'm using custom footbeds. However, my feet will still sometimes cramp, and very often feel just on the verge of cramping.

With your bare feet in the empty shells, are you hitting plastic anywhere?

Is there any hint of impending cramping if you are wearing the boots while sitting around? Or while simply standing indoors?

Standing indoors attached to your board?

If none of the above, care to describe the typical circumstance whereby your feet express their annoyance?

UPZ boots fit me great out of the box,

Sounds like a glimpse of your future.

the problem is the RC10 is much too stiff for me. It doesn't matter how well the boot fits if it's going to perform like crap for me.
Did you demo this boot, or is the stiffness conjecture just that, based on an indoor 'flex test'?

Given that perceived stiffness is an issue, I'll hazard a guess that part of your foot pain is derived from binding setup, and possibly your preferred 'style' of riding.

I already use custom footbeds - Superfeet Korks.
Could be part of the problem. Assuming these were vacuum formed, this process does not work well for all foot conformations.

Can you post a photo of your feet, and of the Korks?

Sometimes, despite all efforts, a shell just won't feel right. Like a round peg in an oblong hole. If the UPZ intuitively feels like the right boot, it probably is the right boot. Stiffer plastic may seem daunting, but at least your sense of touch should improve. Besides, you'll have gummy toe and heel blocks, and no doubt 'engineered flex' in your bindings.

Consider the expense of your current shells a relatively cheap investment in your education. New boots may seem like a foolish expense, but you can always get more money.

Time, on the other hand, not so much.

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With your bare feet in the empty shells, are you hitting plastic anywhere?

My big toe and small toe are always touching.

Is there any hint of impending cramping if you are wearing the boots while sitting around? Or while simply standing indoors?Standing indoors attached to your board?

No, but it might be because I don't wear them long enough.

If none of the above, care to describe the typical circumstance whereby your feet express their annoyance?

It usually happens about two hours into the day, once I've snugged the boots down. My first several runs are always done with my boots slightly loose, and then I tighten them down one I and they are warmed up. It doesn't happen while I'm riding, but usually once I stop, or am on the lift. I think it doesn't happen while riding because my foot is constantly flexing. To stop the cramping I need to loosen my boot, and then try and force my ankle closed.

Did you demo this boot, or is the stiffness conjecture just that, based on an indoor 'flex test'?

I bought a pair UPZ RSV boots a couple years and tried them out. For the life of me I couldn't get them to flex, and it really impacted my riding since it basically took my ankles out of the equation. Maybe they're better now, or the RC8 or ATB is the ticket, but I'd rather have some issue with how my boots fit, then have them impact my riding like that.

Can you post a photo of your feet, and of the Korks?

Sure, though it feels little weird...

footbed.jpg

foot.jpg

footandbed.jpg

Consider the expense of your current shells a relatively cheap investment in your education. New boots may seem like a foolish expense, but you can always get more money.

I don't mind spending the money, but I don't want to spend money on something which won't work (like the last UPZ boots).

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zoltan - are you coming to SES? You're welcome to try my boots, size 27 UPZ RC10, if you'd like. I have the stock FLO liners that I could bring, or you could try your existing liners. I doubt your existing liners would work well as the internal heel shape is vastly different than Deeluxes.

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It usually happens about two hours into the day, once I've snugged the boots down. My first several runs are always done with my boots slightly loose, and then I tighten them down one I and they are warmed up. It doesn't happen while I'm riding, but usually once I stop, or am on the lift. I think it doesn't happen while riding because my foot is constantly flexing. To stop the cramping I need to loosen my boot, and then try and force my ankle closed.
What you have here is a connective tissue/fascia inflammation problem. More likely than not, you have too much material in the arch contour of your Korks. As you ride, that part of your foot is gradually stretched under load, and when you remove/reduce the pressure, (as in a lift ride) the stretched area, now inflamed a bit, contracts.

This is similar to the mechanism associated with the development of the classic Morton's neuritis/neuroma, where the pain is associated with removal of the foot from the compressive confines of the boot. The length of the shell probably doesn't figure into this, but it's probably not helping.

I bought a pair UPZ RSV boots a couple years and tried them out. For the life of me I couldn't get them to flex, and it really impacted my riding since it basically took my ankles out of the equation. Maybe they're better now, or the RC8 or ATB is the ticket, but I'd rather have some issue with how my boots fit, then have them impact my riding like that.
Earlier you cited a case of 'poultry leg'. If you put a svelte calf in a typical boot, the lower leg will be pulled 'back of center' against the spoiler when the boot is buckled. This makes dorsiflexion rather difficult, more so if the plastic is stiff. An extra spoiler wedge or two should alleviate this problem.

Or perhaps some variant of 'male enhancement' surgery?

The Intuition liners with the extra wrap on the upper part may help in this regard. On the other hand, the more supportive Flo liners may work just fine.

Given that perceived stiffness is an issue, I'll hazard a guess that part of your foot pain is derived from binding setup, and possibly your preferred 'style' of riding.
In light of additional information, I'll retract this for the time being.
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What you have here is a connective tissue/fascia inflammation problem. More likely than not, you have too much material in the arch contour of your Korks. As you ride, that part of your foot is gradually stretched under load, and when you remove/reduce the pressure, (as in a lift ride) the stretched area, now inflamed a bit, contracts.

So, is this something I can fix myself? Do I need to have new footbeds made? As with most things, I prefer to do it myself, rather than have someone else do it.

Earlier you cited a case of 'poultry leg'. If you put a svelte calf in a typical boot, the lower leg will be pulled 'back of center' against the spoiler when the boot is buckled. This makes dorsiflexion rather difficult, more so if the plastic is stiff. An extra spoiler wedge or two should alleviate this problem.

I don't believe this is really the case anymore with my boots. There are two layers of boot fitting foam all the way around in the uppers, which actually works amazingly well. When riding I don't need to really crank down on the buckles to get a good, tight fit.

Or perhaps some variant of 'male enhancement' surgery?

My penis is fine, thanks. ;)

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http://www.cosmeticsurgery.com/research/cosmetic-surgery/Calf-Augmentation/

Don't know what you're on about...

So, is this something I can fix myself? Do I need to have new footbeds made? As with most things, I prefer to do it myself, rather than have someone else do it.
If you have access to a stationary belt sander or drum grinder, you can gradually undercut the arch area. Remove material more or less in parallel with the topsheet, but from the underside.

It may not take much to make a difference.

Better footbeds would be advised; but then, what are your options?

As stands, you can futz about with the Korks until you verify a fix.

I don't believe this is really the case anymore with my boots. There are two layers of boot fitting foam all the way around in the uppers, which actually works amazingly well. When riding I don't need to really crank down on the buckles to get a good, tight fit.
If I read correctly, the flex problem was with the UPZ, whereas the foam buildup is on the DEEluxe? Cuff buckle tension wouldn't really make much difference, as the bulk (or lack thereof) at the back of the lower leg would determine if the tibia was pushed forward or pulled back.
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If you have access to a stationary belt sander or drum grinder, you can gradually undercut the arch area. Remove material more or less in parallel with the topsheet, but from the underside.

It may not take much to make a difference.

Better footbeds would be advised; but then, what are your options?

As stands, you can futz about with the Korks until you verify a fix.

I'll give that a shot. I guess my weight will just flatten it down that little bit extra?

What is a better footbed?

If I read correctly, the flex problem was with the UPZ, whereas the foam buildup is on the DEEluxe?

Correct.

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What is a better footbed?
As in what brand/process?

Or characteristics?

In short, a better footbed should match the plantar contour of your foot. It should also account for the independent mobility of the bones of your foot, to the extent that when those bones are under 'compression' (E.G., load), the foot does not significantly 'collapse' either medially or laterally.

Ideally then, you have quieted reflexive muscle activity, while providing more feedback by way of additional data collection points/reduced muscle tension. And they should be 'transparent'.

From the look of things, you have a reasonably typical foot, which suggests that you should have somewhere between .125-.375" of posting material under your first metatarsal head, as that seems to be common.

(Granted, this is just a guess).

As is, it appears that most of your 'support' is derived from the arch.

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As in what brand/process?

This. If the Korks aren't that great, what brand or process should I be looking at?

I rode again yesterday keeping in mind what you'd told me, and I think you were absolutely correct. My left foot has the most issues with cramping, and just standing around I could feel the footbed's arch pressing into my foot, and I only had issues when my weight wasn't on my feet.

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Beckmann AG

As in what brand/process?

This. If the Korks aren't that great, what brand or process should I be looking at?

It really isn't as simple as recommending a particular product. Much has to do with the skill of the fabricator.

That said, I think the component systems, where you have an independent contoured section supported by posting made of fairly dense foam, is more 'tunable' in the hands of a competent tech. Monolithic systems are certainly expedient, and while expediency may work in many cases, it does not seem suited for your application.

I rode again yesterday keeping in mind what you'd told me, and I think you were absolutely correct. My left foot has the most issues with cramping, and just standing around I could feel the footbed's arch pressing into my foot, and I only had issues when my weight wasn't on my feet.

Hopefully you've identified your problem. I would suggest experimenting on the Korks, first reducing the arch fill, and then adding posting at the forefoot until you feel 'solid'. Then you can present your creation to a qualified technician and say, 'build me a clean version of this'.

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