Corey Posted February 15, 2015 Report Share Posted February 15, 2015 Haha, not quite! I like it, but it won't replace any of my alpine boards. I can confirm that an F2 binding is much too wide for a Skwal USA Carver. The center disk alone touches both edges of the topsheet. And, using just the toe/heel blocks from an F2 isn't good as the toe block is surprisingly wide. I think you'd destroy the little plastic height adjustment wheel. A TD3 toe/heel hug the boot really well. Johnasmo's video of Steve and I on our first run on the Skwal USA boards: Please excuse my crazy flappy arms at the start of the run. I was struggling until we got going a bit faster. In my 4 runs, I never really figured out how to sideslip heelside without pivoting around backwards. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ExcelsiorTheFathead Posted February 15, 2015 Report Share Posted February 15, 2015 (edited) Buy Don's Thias bindings right now. Your feet look pretty close together on that skwal. Were you on the outermost set of inserts? Please measure the max stance distance on the 171. Edited February 15, 2015 by ExcelsiorTheFathead Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kieran Posted February 15, 2015 Report Share Posted February 15, 2015 just returned from a week in les deux alpes. saw many (5+) riders on thias skwals, shared some ruts with a two of them, witnessed a guy zoom down a mogul run on one. didn't see what boots he was wearing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Riceball Posted February 15, 2015 Report Share Posted February 15, 2015 Haha, not quite! I like it, but it won't replace any of my alpine boards. I can confirm that an F2 binding is much too wide for a Skwal USA Carver. The center disk alone touches both edges of the topsheet. And, using just the toe/heel blocks from an F2 isn't good as the toe block is surprisingly wide. I think you'd destroy the little plastic height adjustment wheel. A TD3 toe/heel hug the boot really well. Johnasmo's video of Steve and I on our first run on the Skwal USA boards: Please excuse my crazy flappy arms at the start of the run. I was struggling until we got going a bit faster. In my 4 runs, I never really figured out how to sideslip heelside without pivoting around backwards. Just watched this video again since the SES 2015 banquet. I agree with all of Corey's comments regarding comfort at higher speeds and how terrifying it was at a lower side-slipping velocity. I will definitely try it again, but I'm not sure if I'll actually purchase one quite yet. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corey Posted February 16, 2015 Report Share Posted February 16, 2015 Buy Don's Thias bindings right now. They're my backup plan if I can't make something in the next week. I REALLY want step-ins for my 350 vertical-foot hill. Your feet look pretty close together on that skwal. Were you on the outermost set of inserts? Please measure the max stance distance on the 171. Outermost inserts, and the toe/heel blocks were biased outwards too. The outer insert 4x4 packs are 36.4 cm apart. That's center to center. The first two buckles are the major drag point on my UPZ boots. If I decide to ride this a lot, I'll drill the rivets and swap them around so the teeth are on the sides and the buckles are on top. I was booting out on the heelside by the end of my first run! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ExcelsiorTheFathead Posted February 16, 2015 Report Share Posted February 16, 2015 The outer insert 4x4 packs are 36.4 cm apart. That's center to center. That's interesting. Even the Thias Easy Jungle has a max stance of 40cm, which is coincidentally the stance that I am currently using on all my boards. I'd be curious to hear about how SkwalUSA determined their default stance setup. Maybe I should start experimenting with shorter stances again, but it freaks me out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snowboardfast Posted February 16, 2015 Report Share Posted February 16, 2015 Are skwals harder to ride than an alpine board/? Is it harder to ride on hard snow ? I almost demoed one but did not. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corey Posted February 16, 2015 Report Share Posted February 16, 2015 ExcelsiorTheFathead - Ellie (spelling?) from Skwal USA mentioned they could do custom stances, but I heard later that they had many boards made and ready to sell, so I don't know how that would work. I don't see how one could even use the inner set of inserts! The board has graphics right on it that suggest 4cm between boots. snowboardfast - I was really uncomfortable at slow speeds, but the Skwal USA ripped once I got moving. It ate up the hardpack/ice at the bottom of Highlands. That's what sold me on it. I was more comfortable on the Skwal than I was on my Coiler EC or NSR on the same surface. Much of that is the insanely tight sidecut, but it shocked me how well it worked in a section that most riders sideslipped. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
avante Posted February 16, 2015 Report Share Posted February 16, 2015 Explanation about "4 cm between boots": My regular bindings setup: front inserts for front binding, mid inserts for rear binding. Front binding 0 degrees, rear 2-3, sometimes 0 as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
avante Posted February 16, 2015 Report Share Posted February 16, 2015 Great to see new riders involved :) maybe one day we will be able to do a dedicated Skwal Riders Meeting/ Also, I am glad to hear that SkwalUSA is alive. They were extremely unresponsive for previous several years. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corey Posted February 17, 2015 Report Share Posted February 17, 2015 FYI: This is not an approved use for two demo Skwals: Fin is in the background voicing his displeasure. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
www.oldsnowboards.com Posted February 17, 2015 Report Share Posted February 17, 2015 Can't "Un-see" that!!! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gabe T Posted February 18, 2015 Report Share Posted February 18, 2015 It’s nice to see you guys get the opportunity to try one. I’m looking forward to getting back on one too! Please excuse my crazy flappy arms at the start of the run. I was struggling until we got going a bit faster. In my 4 runs, I never really figured out how to sideslip heelside without pivoting around backwards. Yes, the heel side skids/stops were kind of tricky. Before trying the Coiler skwal, Bruce warned me about getting more weight on the back. It was still a bit awkward as I was exerting the back leg muscles quite a bit during the process. Eventually I leaned my upper body back a bit to ease some of the tension on the back leg. Not too sure if a wider or narrower stance would make this more difficult. Guessing a wider stance might be easier. The narrow stance is still a bit of a mystery to me as I’m not sure what the benefits are. Are there any skwalers out there that also alpine snowboard and prefer the narrow stance? Based on some earlier comments on this thread, it seems like a lot of guys that have had experience riding alpine find a wider stance more comfortable. I was discussing the topic about potential market of the ‘skinnys’ with Bruce after our first runs on his original build. My thoughts were that there was some definite crossover potential with the alpine crowd but people would need to get a taste of it first before diving into a purchase. To date, not too many opportunities to try one here in North America let alone see someone else ride one. And if you get to the stage of trying one, you really need to find a comfortable setup, otherwise that may turn some people off. Interesting to see some of the skwal specs; some do not seem very conducive to varying setups. E.g. (Oxess) with fixed inserts, short max stance width; less than 40com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lowrider Posted February 18, 2015 Report Share Posted February 18, 2015 I think you have a valid point with the try before you buy idea. I have offered lots of people the chance to try my Skwal but only had one taker. Very similar to the response I got from people on trying a plate. Heel side skid and stops are the one thing that seems to be the scariest and a hard maneuver to get comfortable with. I'm pretty sure the rear leg pain and muscle soreness I experienced are a result of forcing a skid instead of carving. A comfortable all day stance is still elusive. Slowly widening the stance seems to help. Switching to some TD1'S with more toe and heel lift is next. When will the next board be ready ? Looks like this might be the best groom of the season hope it doesn't end soon. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RobertAlexander Posted February 18, 2015 Report Share Posted February 18, 2015 I usually ride alpineboard, but at the correct time, I take out the skwal. A 172cm length, 14 cm wide, with 9.5 scr. I like a 16.5" stance, I ride it with my weight concentrated at the front so it carves into the snow. I think that a wider stance enables a lower squat position, a narrower stance you must be more upright. There is no right or wrong, just what you want to do that you are comfortable with. I placed the front inserts just a few inches in front of mid point of effective edge. The rear inserts are the same placement as an alpineboard. This enables the camber to work more effectively in rough crud like snow, or other than perfect choppy snow, the board is very smooth/comfortable. Transitions are very quick, as though you are riding on one edge. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ExcelsiorTheFathead Posted February 18, 2015 Report Share Posted February 18, 2015 (edited) Here's a bunch of comments to recent things in the thread... It's cool to have so much new activity. A skinny skwal like the Skwal USA 171 feels good on ice because the edge is so close to the boot and just a little weight shift allows the body to balance on it. Further, the short radius allows for a carvy feeling at slow speeds. I think it definitely takes more effort to precisely balance a wide board on ice. If you really have trouble skidding heelside, maybe you need shallower angles? I know that's a tall order on an 11.2cm board because of the boot-out issues. I don't think that I have problems in this area, but I have many hours on skwals now. Is a 14cm board really a skwal? Where do we draw the line? The stance characteristics when riding 12-13cm boards is quite a bit different from 14-15cm boards. Should we differentiate between skwals and narrow boards? A couple of years ago I rode one of the Donek 15cm prototypes and I think my stance was close to 17" with relatively low angles. As one goes from an 11.2 cm waist to a 15cm waist, the angles get lower and the stance gets wider. Skwal USA definitely markets to skiers, which makes sense. Trying to market primarily to alpine snowboarders is really limiting for a company that only has two models to sell. Skiers that try a skwal may not have any qualms about the short stance distance. I'm a little surprised that they describe the 171 as suitable for "extreme carving" because I consider it too narrow. I think that fully layed out turns on the 171 will be met with complete boot-out, but maybe I just suck. I'd guess that most alpine carvers like a wider stance on a skwal, but that is based on nothing but my own experience. If you know what stance you like, single fixed inserts are definitely superior because more inserts only serve to weaken an already fragile board. By shifting my bindings, I could narrow up my stance by 4cm which is plenty of room for experimentation (excepting truly narrow stances). But what is the optimum insert configuration for an "off the shelf" skwal? Someone who orders a Coiler or Donek skwal might already have some idea of what they might like and can get a custom setup. Bruce has probably put a bunch of thought into the insert situation for his prototypes and is going wider to accomodate transitioning alpine carvers. Sean has been making skwals since forever and probably finds this newfound interest to be amusing. The 4cm between boots thing seems to me like it is just an old "rule of thumb". I don't know anything, but I consider the concept to be antiquated. The old Thias instruction page is very cool; thanks for posting it. I think that a slightly wider skwal is better for beginners and more appropriate for carvers. The Easy Jungle is 12.5cm and I like this width. I still don't understand what the benefit is of sub-12cm waist widths. I just looked this up on a whim and found that USD $1 = CAD $1.24. Hmm. Edited February 18, 2015 by ExcelsiorTheFathead Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corey Posted February 23, 2015 Report Share Posted February 23, 2015 Day 1 after the 3 demo runs at SES went well. I alternated between the Skwal USA and a Coiler Angry 160 at a 300' tall ski hill. If you don't get enough strange looks and questions on an alpine snowboard, try a Skwal. I had the full gamut from jib kids angrily yelling as I went past to a guy talking about how much he loved monoskiing to a liftie saying that 'someone should be filming you'. (Very few lifties here ski or snowboard, this guy didn't) The comparison from the Angry to the Skwal USA was interesting. The Skwal is happier to carve at lower speeds than the Angry. It makes the 9.5m VSR sidecut Angry feel like it has a 13m sidecut, My 20" stance on the Angry felt massive after riding the Skwal for an hour! I felt much more comfortable with subtle fore-aft weight shifts on the Angry. Granted - this was my first full day on the Skwal... I am definitely able to boot-out the Skwal USA board on command. However, at those edge angles it's not really carving anymore as it's trying to bend into an insanely tight radius. This is like the older fiberglass alpine boards without VSR and/or decambered nose and tail. I found myself de-angulating to keep the board turning at a happy radius when I was leaned over. I never really got comfortable sideslipping. Oddly, I could change from a carve to a slide and back again without issue. I tried doing some falling leaf drills but the snow was so abrasive that the thing really didn't want to slide on the mellow hill. I'll have to try again later. This ski hill has terrible unloading areas from the 1960s. They're steeper than any of the marked runs. I hate them on a snowboard, and even more so on the Skwal! I didn't find a good way to feel stable with one foot out. Frantic 'I'm on fire!' or 'I'm swimming in invisible water' arm waving seemed to help. ;) More practice is needed. It's an interesting thing that I'll invest more time into. My DIY bindings held up: http://forums.bomberonline.com/index.php?/topic/41280-make-your-own-bindings Clipping in was tough. I need to cant my rear foot outwards some more as I had to really tuck the back knee in to get the inside pin to click in. FYI: a Bomber leash can't handle boot-out on a Skwal. It tore the stitching right out of the flap at the Fastec buckle by lunchtime. LOL! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gabe T Posted February 26, 2015 Report Share Posted February 26, 2015 Got on the Coiler Skwal #2 this past weekend; same one that Bruce was riding at SES. Based on a Nirvana Balance, 174cm, 13 cm wide. VSR around 12m. Setup looked to have slightly lower binding angles than the test ride I had on skwal #1. Bruce set it up goofy for me so I just left the angles as is. A thin plastic plate was installed under each binding to distribute some of the forces from the metal TD3 disks. Stance width was around 44cm/17.5 inches. 6 degree heel lift, 3 degree toe lift. After having had about an hour on the first skwal 3 weeks ago, this felt pretty comfy from the start. I was hoping for firmer conditions but like the first time there was a few cms of fresh snow. The board was easy to ride and as time passed it began to feel more and more like a regular board. Stopping and sliding was also quite comfortable; a necessity on the weekend as the slope was quite crowded at times. One of the adjustments I found myself making involved pressuring the rear foot more during turns. I took it out the next morning as well. Conditions were still on the softer / slow side but there was just a dusting of snow and some fresh morning groom. I made some laid out turns early in the morning when the slope was still smooth and it felt really nice! Didn't experience any boot out as the added width combined with the radius of the board provided enough clearance. The skwal was the only board I rode on the weekend so I didn't experience the weirdness of switching back to a wider board. Just for kicks I did a run using my friend's ski poles who was doing the filming.I posted some footage in the videos forum. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lowrider Posted February 26, 2015 Report Share Posted February 26, 2015 Very gracious to call him your friend after that ending ! Was that his way of saying "My turn Now ". 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ExcelsiorTheFathead Posted February 26, 2015 Report Share Posted February 26, 2015 Looks like great fun! The angles seem plenty low enough to make edge feathering finesse easy. Heelside stops are clearly not a problem! A 17.5" stance seems pretty huge to me, but I'd guess that this is only made comfortable by the big 6 degree lift in back. (I also don't know how tall you are.) For me, very wide stances start to feel like I'm trying to hold a lunge for way too long. If you have a chance, I'd try going 3/3 on the lift and tighten up the stance by at least an inch to see what you might think of it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ExcelsiorTheFathead Posted February 26, 2015 Report Share Posted February 26, 2015 (edited) On the subject of plastic spacers to distribute forces, my Oxess skwal has slightly raised areas around where the bindings sit which give the impression that some kind of reinforcement is baked into the board. Is this true of all Oxess boards? Anybody know what is in there and if it is effective, or is it totally cosmetic? Could Bruce do something similar? Edited February 26, 2015 by ExcelsiorTheFathead Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corey Posted February 26, 2015 Report Share Posted February 26, 2015 I'm pretty sure Bruce will make daisy shapes if you ask nice enough. And are willing to pay for it. ;) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gabe T Posted February 27, 2015 Report Share Posted February 27, 2015 Very gracious to call him your friend after that ending ! Was that his way of saying "My turn Now ". The video makes it look worse than it actually was. I don't think we really made much contact; no signs from examining the board at least. I slid out toe side; he managed to stay up on his skis but lost a hold of the pole holding the camera. You see him at the end of the shot. The pole got bent out of shape though as I'm guessing it got jammed into the ground before getting let go. A 17.5" stance seems pretty huge to me, but I'd guess that this is only made comfortable by the big 6 degree lift in back. (I also don't know how tall you are.) For me, very wide stances start to feel like I'm trying to hold a lunge for way too long. If you have a chance, I'd try going 3/3 on the lift and tighten up the stance by at least an inch to see what you might think of it. The most heel lift I've ever used prior to this was 3 degrees. I was using Bruce's TD3s so no option to go 3/3 at the moment. The wide stance was comfortable and I didn't feel any unusual soreness after a full day of riding. I did feel a bit more strain on the legs the first time out but that may have been attributed some of the earlier runs where there was a bit more tension in the legs trying to adjust. My height is 5"11. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corey Posted March 1, 2015 Report Share Posted March 1, 2015 I did my second half-day on the Skwal today. I'm getting better at skidding but still nowhere near as comfortable as I am at carving the thing. Playing with cross-under turns is fun/scary. It just wants to change direction NOW! I lost the tail a few times right as I was popping into the next turn. Oh boy! The Skwal USA has that old fiberglass board pop and threat of turning back under you and folding the nose because, well, it IS an old fiberglass board with a single-radius sidecut, no decamber, and a sharp nose rise. It's a fun change from a super-smooth metal board. Man does this thing ever turn tight! I've realized I don't have to hyper-angulate to tip the board up high, so boot-out is less of a concern on mild runs. I'm not quite dragging hips though, so as I get better on it that issue may come up again. I need to add some more outward cant on the rear binding. I need to contort in unnatural ways to clip in my rear foot if there's even the tiniest bit of snow on my boot. It feels ok when carving, but maybe my skidding issues are due to a twisted board? Regardless, I'll change something. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corey Posted March 1, 2015 Report Share Posted March 1, 2015 I should also add that it's neat switching back and forth with an alpine board. The heelside feels quite similar but the toeside feels pretty different. Not what I would have guessed! The bindings feel way far apart on one, and it feels like there's not enough room for certain male parts on the other. LOL! The skiers are quite interested in the freak-show aspect of the Skwal, the snowboarders look at you with disdain. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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