The Superboot

[Rob Stevens]

So... The SBX'ers won't use hardboots and neither will most of the SB'ing public.

No sense in trying to buck this trend. It is how it is.

Clearly, though, the ever-aging SB population, moving away from airs and into turning for fun would benefit from a better boot, as would the SBX racers who have to use whatever is out there right now.

Back a few months ago, I was fishing around, looking for a pair of Koflach Superpipes. I did find a few pairs thanks to some cool BOL'ers but never bought them. I decided not to go back for a few reasons that will come out here.

Right now, you can go to the shop and buy all manner of "freeride" boots that claim to be more "supportive". This term is a little loose, but tends to universally mean a stiffer ankle, forward lean wise. Burton did go one step further with the Driver X as it has a Vibram sole, but this sole still has flex.

What do I want? Well, for starters, a sole that will not flex whatsoever along its length. This would be supported by an "I beam", allowing the sole to flex tortionally. Secondly, a plastic back stay / spoiler that would maintain its forward lean, no matter what. Finally, I'd like to see a few replaceable tongues (basic, with just the attached tongue, mid and stiff).

Of course, this would all be "packaged" to look like a softboot and would be used with a conventional soft binding.

The Superpipes were pretty close. The sole was stiff, but was narrow and rolled side to side, unlike a softboot that sits flat. The back stay / spoiler was also riveted in place to the lower, so it was hinged, providing no forward lean at all. Lastly, it just looked different, which as we all know is a deathblow to any snowboard product.

There are some really great bindings out there, it seems a real shame to not mate them with something that compliments their efficiencies. Especially stiff base plates. Swell to have a stiff baseplate, but if you have to crank the main strap down so hard just to keep your heel from lifting, you loose alot of power and gain alot of "**** that hurts!"

[utahcarver]

Rob: Historically speaking, what you are asking for is a boot that can do it all. The elusive Holy Grail Boot: It can play in powder and surf big mountain conditions while at the same time holding up to the demands and pressures of carving early morning cord. Unless a manufacturer steps up and makes such a legendary boot, anyone who is looking for this boot is going to be asking for the 'custom curse'.

Personally, the BTS went a long way to accomplishing something like this for my riding style. I put them on some older Raichle 123's (3 buckle) with yellow springs and TD2's. Assuming that TDSidewinders give the lateral flex needed to get the 'surfy' feel I like, I may have found the best combo of boot and binding for myself when I can afford the Sidewinders later this year.

My setup is still very limiting when it compares to softboot and soft bindings as an interface. If the focus of any hybrid boot becomes the ankle and the boot construction is based upon the ability of this point of any boot to flex and provide support, that'd be the place to start to develop any hybrid-bred boot that could do it all.

Mark

[DiveBomber]

the problem is your going to need an ACTUAL ankle pivot which wont fly with the industry

[Rob Stevens]

If the focus of any hybrid boot becomes the ankle and the boot construction is based upon the ability of this point of any boot to flex and provide support, that'd be the place to start to develop any hybrid-bred boot that could do it all.

Mark

If there was one part of a modern softboot I thought was passable, it would be the forward flex, which can be eaasily modded with tongues.

The spoilers are a different story with most breaking down quickly. The simple fix is to add plastic (and cover it with fabric, of course).

The weak link for me, since getting out of the Koflachs has been the sole flex. This continues to be the bane of any hard packed day I get, where the reverse-arching effect cramps my foot so badly I just want to shut it down.

I have been thinking about having a Vibram sole from an ice climbing boot bonded to my 32 TM2's, or a carbon fibre footboard epoxied inside.

Anyone ever try the latter?

Again, I can personally appreciate the "soft-hardboot" angle as I'm not one to be stigmatized, but as for the general population? Not so much. There is also the issue of ride height. I want to be low and don't really need the clearance to accomodate a big foot as I'm only a 10.

[Rob Stevens]

the problem is your going to need an ACTUAL ankle pivot which wont fly with the industry

Why?

With most softboots, the rider accepts that the shell will puff out and distort as you flex forward. That has never been a problem.

My issue is with the forward lean that breaks down after a few minutes of riding or an exchange of harsh words with the sensitive boot.

[lonbordin]

Why?

With most softboots, the rider accepts that the shell will puff out and distort as you flex forward. That has never been a problem.

My issue is with the forward lean that breaks down after a few minutes of riding or an exchange of harsh words with the sensitive boot.

Well except for the fact after distorting the shell x times the boot is dead and the lack of adjust ability (BTS + tongue is greater than tongue alone). Oh and the pivot can be adjusted north & south by a good boot fitter.

For the record I think the biggest advances in snowboarding will come from the boot and binding and the interaction thereof.

[DiveBomber]

because thats a HUGE part of the suckiness of mush boots.

you cant lean into the boots, they are so soft up top no matter how "stiff" they are. The only way i can get them even REMOTELY decent is to tighten the upper laces so tight it cuts of my circ. BUT then I dont get enough range of motion.

took me a while to figure this and, this was the reason my ankle felt like it was about to break on landings and high pressure toe sides.

but if i kept it loose enough to be comfortable, then the performance would diminish, oh and the boots arent that comfortable to begin with, its not like wearing sneakers or hiking boots...

so whats the point???

which is why I prefer hard boots, they have "proper" flex, you know just like your actual foot!

i think people should look at how inline skate have come along, many of them are "soft boots" but they still have a support structure.

[Ohob]

I've had my Superpipes for... wow... a really long time! lol If I remember right, I picked them up circa 95. I still use them regularly because I've never found another soft boot that has as much support/stiffness/comfort.

Finding a binding that they will fit in is the hard part because they are so narrow. My older K2 bindings work with them pretty decent though.

[heroshmero]

Except for the interchangable tongues what you describe sounds a lot like the best of the old Clicker boots. The soles are stiff due to the plate in the boot that the toe and heel cleats screw into. The have a nice amount of side to side flex, have an attached adjustable high back, and an ratcheting ankle strap.

I wish they still made them. I've got 2 pair of boots. One Ace pair and one Remote pair. The Remote's have a sweet power strap. Both are liner/shell style boots.

Too bad one of the cleats broke on my older Remote's and I'm down to one pair. I'm preparing myself for switching to a different binding because the Ace's can't last forever. I will probably put plate bindings on more of my boards and get some Flow's for the rest.

[Rob Stevens]

because thats a HUGE part of the suckiness of mush boots.

you cant lean into the boots, they are so soft up top no matter how "stiff" they are. The only way i can get them even REMOTELY decent is to tighten the upper laces so tight it cuts of my circ. BUT then I dont get enough range of motion.

took me a while to figure this and, this was the reason my ankle felt like it was about to break on landings and high pressure toe sides.

but if i kept it loose enough to be comfortable, then the performance would diminish, oh and the boots arent that comfortable to begin with, its not like wearing sneakers or hiking boots...

so whats the point???

which is why I prefer hard boots, they have "proper" flex, you know just like your actual foot!

i think people should look at how inline skate have come along, many of them are "soft boots" but they still have a support structure.

Again, we can't compare the performance of hardboots to soft... We're talking about a totally different ride here, where the level of performance will not be comparable head-to-head.

What I would like to achieve is comfort for a rider who already likes the performance of softboots, but does not like the pain that can be associated with riding them in hard snow. You would have to be a dedicated softboot rider to know that this pain is mostly associated with sole flex and not the casual softbooters (coming from HB's) impression that the forward lean is not supportive enough (though I would like to address that, too).

What I don't mind talking about is how you might hide a "support structure" under material that makes the boot look like current soft offerings.

[Rob Stevens]

Except for the interchangable tongues what you describe sounds a lot like the best of the old Clicker boots. The soles are stiff due to the plate in the boot that the toe and heel cleats screw into. The have a nice amount of side to side flex, have an attached adjustable high back, and an ratcheting ankle strap.

I wish they still made them. I've got 2 pair of boots. One Ace pair and one Remote pair. The Remote's have a sweet power strap. Both are liner/shell style boots.

Too bad one of the cleats broke on my older Remote's and I'm down to one pair. I'm preparing myself for switching to a different binding because the Ace's can't last forever. I will probably put plate bindings on more of my boards and get some Flow's for the rest.

I hear you on this one as I did ride Clickers in conventional bindings and found them to be very responsive, while not allowing my foot to reverse-arch.

The downside is that one Clicker boot weighs as much as my pair of 32's.

This is important in the overall picture as my Salomon Burner with C60 / 16's is incredibly light. I would say that with my boots included, the whole thing is lighter than my UPZ's and Catek's, without the board.

For freeriding, light is king. For alpine, I don't mind the weight as I'm not trying to get the board off the ground, spin it, or swing it around in sliding turns.

[Chucklebeast]

Except for the interchangable tongues what you describe sounds a lot like the best of the old Clicker boots. The soles are stiff due to the plate in the boot that the toe and heel cleats screw into. The have a nice amount of side to side flex, have an attached adjustable high back, and an ratcheting ankle strap.

I wish they still made them.

Dang, now you got me and my tools out...I'm gonna play with my old K2 boots and Clickers tomorrow, jus' for fun...its what I learned to carve in on a Rossi freestyle in 00'...left trenches the HB boys would admire, it was nice.

[Erik J]

What I don't mind talking about is how you might hide a "support structure" under material that makes the boot look like current soft offerings.

I imagine 4 sleeves that interlock around the cuff. One tounge that slips in, 2 lateral supports that slip into a sleeve with velcro at the top (like a pillowcase, not the ones that are open on the side, the ones that have a pocket like 3/4 into the case), and a rear spoiler/support that slips in as well. The lateral and rear could have a sort of tounge & groove piece so that they all connect but slip independently of each other for a little bit of supported 360 deg motion. All of this is hidden inside of a soft kevlar outer. You could even thread a boa system around the whole upper cuff internally (goes around sides and rear to front) to tighten or loosen on-the-fly.

But I talk outa my butt alot and believe that wrestling and santa claus are real.

[Chucklebeast]

Santa's not real? Bummer, I thought he was just late with my new Donek....

[DiveBomber]

well for starters I tried putting my Head race tounges in my malamutes, didnt work.

im not that worried about weight, I can swing a board around no problem, have a kessler with hangls hanging off your feet, then everything else is light!

what about an "over tounge" that would kind of like and exoskeleton type tonge that would go on top of your boot held on by the straps?

[carvedog]

Interesting thread.

I used to run Superpipes with Elfgen tongues in Nitro bindings. Fairly tall high back on those. I really liked it. I went through two pairs of boots in that setup.

When I thought I should "modernize" I went through stiff clicker setups, Burton 3 strap and two strap with two different boots, Burton Stepin before I finally gave up. Other than still teaching beginner type stuff in the Stepins, I ride hard boots. For hiking and split boarding I would love to have a light weight setup, even if it was soft boots.

[Jack M]

Why not a 3-strap binding?

And/or a Kelly tongue or Elfgen tongue?

I think these are the gateway drug to hardboots.

[bobdea]

close to what some makers are doing up the back of the boot and the way they hinge at the cuff. burton hail and slx come to mind. if they stiffened the bottom and added some plastic to the tongue it might be your boot.

other than fit my biggest issue with the driver is the way it deforms and crushes my foot when I lean on it in the binding in a toeside. the Slx, hail and other variants of that design don't do that I hear. gilmour really likes them but the local wachusett park rats really sing their praise because that cuff allows a boot to be very responsive without being restrictive.

I'm not sold until they make a really stiff boot like that, I buy my fantasy boot, I ride in them and love them.

I wonder if a beam or board in the sole would increase board feel or diminish it?

interesting you mentioned clickers, they were the first softboot system I really was able to rail on.

with the noboard thing you must have some industry connections.......... you could probably sew together a prototype. then get it built in asia to keep costs down.

just need a couple mil in startup capital!!!

[Galen]

Why not a 3-strap binding?

And/or a Kelly tongue or Elfgen tongue?

I think these are the gateway drug to hardboots.

3 straps on a Ginsu is what got me into hardboots:1luvu:

[heroshmero]

K2 made some Clicker boots in 99 or 2000 that were intended for the serious backcountry crowd (or at least that's how they were marketing them). The had a full plastic sole that was crampon compatible bonded to a soft upper. There were two different versions. One had more plastic and looked to be more supportive. They were a lot like that new Apex boot thing (http://www.apexsportsgroup.com/). They looked sick and would have been sweet to use to do some snowboard mountaineering with. They were only around for one or two years. I wish I had picked up a couple.

I found a few pictures of them. Oddly enough, they are called Sidewinders. I can't remember what the other one was called or if these pictures are the ones with more plastic or less. That third picture is them on a Clicker approach ski.

Here's a pair that look to be for sale in a mens 9.

http://www.saltypeaks.com/products/7054/K2-Sidewinder-Step-In-Boots-Tan-Grey-Black-#21-Mens-Size-9.html

[DjulezD]

i think people should look at how inline skate have come along, many of them are "soft boots" but they still have a support structure.

+1 on this.

Roller skating (quads) went from leather boots to hard hockey shells, then back again to softer, hybrid shells with the development of inline skates. The problem with the hard hockey shells was precisely the forward flex, because they were one bloc. They remain like this with the high-end hockey skates (mission, bauer), which belong to a very thin market segment.

Today, most of the hybrid shell have a forward flexing mechanism similar to what you will find on a hb shell. The most elaborate from Salomon (like the crossmax for instance) are a combination of laces, buckles, hard shell, reinforced nylon material and some leather. Oh and I forgot, they have a thermoformable liner. All this below 500 bucks including the chassis, wheels and bindings.

This speaks a lot about what mass market can bring and, from this point of view, I fully agree with Rob S' assessment that you need to look into making soft boots more responsive.

However I don't think it should be seen as a HB/SB divide. I remember that Koflach boots where used with both plates and straps, not to mention AT bindings and crampons. In my opinion, something to the same effect would have a lot of market potential because it would touch a larger segment of the population (sb carving, sbx, hb all mountain, AT, moutaineering), and it could also play on the one-for-all argument.

Most of the hybrid boots for inline skates include the following components:

- laces for the lower part ;

- ankle strap ;

- forward flex mechanism ;

- one or two buckles on the ankle.

(doesn't it remind you of that K2 sidewinder boot pictured above).

In terms of lenght, it is also worth noting that inline skates boots have a shorter bottom (no sole obviously) than the actual foot length, which is very similar to HB's.

[DiveBomber]

someone buy those sidewinders and let us know how they work!

id buy them but they are only size 9

[b0ardski]

If I had the $250 I be all over these.

In 2000 I bought clickers with a high back on the boot but they did not have the forward lean support that these sidewinders appear to have. I'm not a fan of the clicker interface, it's finicky & lacks lateral response.

They look beefy enough to use with plates. I'd bet pairing sidewinders with sidewinders would be a killer freeride/powder setup. Being a non-liner boot I'm sure the weight is way less than my 3 buckle Raichles.

If the ratchet strap is removable like the burton SI it could be the ultimate hybrid.

[lonbordin]

I have these. They have an integrated high-back with a three position forward lean adjustment (and walk mode) and the 3rd strap. The bottoms are pretty inflexible. They weigh a ton but all my shoes do (Mondo 30).

Overall an ok system, my 2 cents.