Soft Bindings For Freecarving

[Dave ESPI]

Hi, my name is Dave, and I'm not always right and I never said I was an expert, so if you will excuse my apathy and my passion for this sport and discussing all aspects of it, I beg the forgiveness of the slopelords.

I'm a good listener, so I will pipe down as it has been requested with any personal experiences as to advice with "carving specific" topics.

I look forward to reading others posted advice and comments.

I'm not mad or sore or upset, or anything, Its just a discussion forum, so in no ways should anyone think they are hurting my feelings with their comments, I'm a big guy like that, and can take my licks and salt grains in stride.

See ya on the slopes @ SES and ECES and Thunderdome, or wherever.

What Is best about the carver community here on BOL is the honesty. If you want to say hello, or just simply that I "Suck", please walk up introduce yourself, and say it in person and establish a level of balls off the internet on the snow where as the orange oval riders say; "Respect gets Respect".

No worries, Perhaps A lot of what is "me" gets lost in translation online.

Either way, any online forum is like a dysfunctional family where ya don't have to have character to be a character.

Typicaly it's not WHAT you say it's HOW you say it, whether it be an email, a text or a verbal conversation keep in mind how what you are saying is coming across to the other person(s).

[John E]

I hate to redirect this back to Flow bindings but a non-alpine rider I ride with swears by them. He likes the convenience but especially the rigidity & support. Someone said that some of the middle years of Flow bindings had some durability issues (unique hardware falling off & getting lost) but that they have since corrected this.

Aside from 3 strap bindings, is there any consensus that the new stiffer Flow bindings are a good way to carve with soft boots?

[GeoffV]

This is softboot carving

Toogenburg, NY 1991

PJ6 with Burton Flex Bindings

[nekdut]

Typicaly it's not WHAT you say it's HOW you say it, whether it be an email, a text or a verbal conversation keep in mind how what you are saying is coming across to the other person(s).

You say this, yet much of the rest of your post above, as well as many other previous posts, clearly do not keep this in mind.

[GeoffV]

I miss your I mean My hair too:o

Bugs who is this?

[Dave ESPI]

You say this, yet much of the rest of your post above, as well as many other previous posts, clearly do not keep this in mind.

I will work on that :)

Geoff, that pic looks not much different than a lot of pics from 2010... just sayin...

[BlueB]

Can I be a snowboard instructor, pleeeeease?

Oh, wait, I am already... Why I never get to do hardboot lessons like that?

[docrob]

It’ll take a while to check out all the various ideas here. In the meantime, I think I ordered some FR2,s to be going on with (Catek hasn’t got back re’ the associated spec questions).

I’ll be deliberately vague about other setups that you all have convinced me are worth trying! Thanks blokes; I’ve learned loads.<O:p</O:p

<O:p></O:p>

Actually, as a consequence of what I learned during progress of this thread, I wished that instead of asking in the OP about 60/40 angles, I had instead asked about:<O:p></O:p>

“maximum rear bootout and angle for learning, and for perfecting freecarves (if different) in softboots on a hybrid freeride-carving board circa 26 cm wide at centre binding mount…and how if at all these settings would be different to allow freeride also”.

..bit of a mouthful, but this has me a bit stumped, since at 20 degrees, I still get 1.2 cm bootout. Is this angle/ bootout too much?

<O:p></O:p>

Can anyone advise on this here, or do folks think should I start another thread?

[Bobby Buggs]

Bugs who is this?

Carvefathers X wife:( We used to do a Colorado trip every year with them, once they split No more:( I think that picture was Aspen 2002 for the last PureCarve session. Not to be confused with Joerg and Pureboarding.

[Seraph]

Hi, my name is Dave.....

Hey will that work? Looks like you have a bit of overhang, maybe you need to steepen the angles. :rolleyes:

[bobdea]

Carvefathers X wife:( We used to do a Colorado trip every year with them, once they split No more:( I think that picture was Aspen 2002 for the last PureCarve session. Not to be confused with Joerg and Pureboarding.

dude, she's got the sorta sexy EyE talian mom look going. she from beverly or revere or a new yawkah?

I gots a Beverly sicilian myself

[bobdea]

Hi, my name is Dave, and I'm not always right and I never said I was an expert, so if you will excuse my apathy and my passion for this sport and discussing all aspects of it, I beg the forgiveness of the slopelords.

I'm a good listener, so I will pipe down as it has been requested with any personal experiences as to advice with "carving specific" topics.

I look forward to reading others posted advice and comments.

you always say you're a expert, this is one of my beefs with you

you're not a good listener, if you were you'd of smartened up a couple years ago.

It's not just carving specific topics, it's the basic fundamentals of snowboarding.

have you changed your listing in the instructor search? extreme race carving style or whatever you wrote is false advertising and reflects poorly on all of us.

[Jack M]

Geoff, that pic looks not much different than a lot of pics from 2010... just sayin...

I disagree. It was good for the time, but...

[Bobby Buggs]

dude, she's got the sorta sexy EyE talian mom look going. she from beverly or revere or a new yawkah?

I gots a Beverly sicilian myself

Full On Eye talian from "the City", A wonderful lady thats in better physical shape than 90% of the people on this site, Even Geoff:eek:, Ill bet my metal on it. It was a sad day for me and the wife when they split up:(

[Rob Stevens]

... until I read what Dave said about the differences, or lack thereof, between various soft bindings.

docrob: You may not feel it now and therefore, may not wish to spend money on higer end soft bindings, but certain select models vastly outperform the majority of offerings by a wide margin. Especially if carving turns is what you're after.

I would not use the billet machined bindings of any manufacturer simply due to the weight. I would look at Nitro Machines and Nidecker 800 and 900's, if you wanted something "lifetime" that you could grow into. For your ability level, you could likely run something plastic / glass rather than carbon or aluminum and be fine for a few seasons.

At this stage in my life, I don't want any flex in my bindings. This has been hard on me when I have not been in shape to deal with the added vibrations, but when I'm fit, it's on.

I'll tell you a little story about softboot carving.

When I lived in Whistler and taught there as the mountains first SB instructor (GD's claim aside... He knows who he worked for), the Sims team came for training before an Op Pro at Blackcomb. This was the original team roster of Downing, Kidwell, Palmer, Delaney, ect.

I was riding up the Green chair, over the public race lane as Kevin D, World Champ at the time, came ****ing railing down the pitch. Before that, I thought I was carving. Well, that thought went right out the window with one look at him and another fella who rode for the Colorado Boarder (a swell guy... wish I could remember his name).

That night, I went to the shop where my tech friend and myself re-drilled my back binding to 40 degrees.

The next morning, my first toeside turn put me into the weeds, but was I stoked. That turn was badass.

You should know that the bindings in question were Kemper FS's with Kemper FS boots. Just the angle alone was enough to promote a different alignment on the board and a different result, that made carving easier.

Hell... Google "Smooth Groove" and watch CK carve the **** out of some old stock. His knees are locked and he's in his trademarked "Superman" posture, but he railed better back than than many can on modern gear, The same could be said for half the Sims team in 1989, when I hung with those guys. ****ing good times.

Again, docrob, from where you are now, you can learn alot about carving with just an angle adjust of the rear and leave the rest alone. Sure, the product is out there to make it way more high performance that what you're going to get, but who cares? I like shredding, driving home and walking the dog in the same boots myself.

I will add this caveat: When you go freeriding, especially in terrain that requires more sliding than carving, back off your angles, especially on the rear foot. You'll find that it's much harder to get to your toes from your heels in a sliding turn with high angles.

[photodad2001]

you just used the softboot sailor argument. "that's the way I did it 20 years ago so that's how I do it now despite current wisdom" which in reality equates to "I fear change and modern technique"

How about a new arguement then (and the one I was trying to do in the first place) and that is if you talk with golf pros (sorry using a different stage to get across the same message) that teach lessons (and the ones who really teach, and work with the student) and that is people have different swings. If you push a particular swing on an individual it doesn't work on you are doing damage. I spent a year and a half out of the game for trying to do it "the prefered way". Let me demonstrate through another parody. I swam breaststroke at Regionals in highschool, and while it had been a fad and later dismissed, I used a kick called a "whip" kick instead of the traditional and still used kick today. Why? According to modern wisdom I should have been slower, but in practice and every time trial I did I always swam faster that way rather than the "agreed upon" way. My way works (for me) and it drives some people on here crazy because I'm not conforming to their way. I think Fin's quote now may be a bit out dated. Perhaps the only way to be a conformist and a snowboarder is to carve in softboots.

[docrob]

Rob, I don't think I said how balanced and helpful I find your posts.

It's these angles (and boot out) for learning, and perfecting carves, and how much I should allow differently for freeride that I need advise on.

See other thread or post above.

I am also really interested to know how e.g. dual can be set up for runs with freecarving and freeriding/sideslipping. What you say here suggests that for a learning carver, this versatility will detract from one or the other.

So what rear boot angles should I be thinking of?

I added the chicks on the other threads when I noticed how, on this thread, the guys enjoyed the pix of the moma, and how it calmed them down !

PS; in the light of what you say, was buying the Fr2 pro evo a mistake re learning to carve (too stiff?)

[bobdea]

Rob, I don't think I said how balanced and helpful I find your posts.

It's these angles (and boot out) for learning, and perfecting carves, and how much I should allow differently for freeride that I need advise on.

See other thread or post above.

I am also really interested to know how e.g. dual can be set up for runs with freecarving and freeriding/sideslipping. What you say here suggests that for a learning carver, this versatility will detract from one or the other.

So what rear boot angles should I be thinking of?

I added the chicks on the other threads when I noticed how, on this thread, the guys enjoyed the pix of the moma, and how it calmed them down !

PS; in the light of what you say, was buying the Fr2 pro evo a mistake re learning to carve (too stiff?)

I don't think one or the other detracts from the other. for carving in softboots my optimum angles are the same if I'm ripping in the trees or carving on groom.

I think that's sort of a misconception that comes up here is that higher angles are needed to carve and it's just not true. there's a range for what gear works best. that's dependent on the board you have. for me I can't deal with boards narrower than 26 cm in softboots. in hardboots it's over 21 cm I don't like it.

if anything running high angles past 30 or 35 degrees or makes riding softboots harder for most things for most people. this is why no pros that I know of ride 45 degree angles in softboots in modern times.

[docrob]

so 20-25 degrees rear (would give small to no bootout!) and up to 35 front shouldn't be a problem for an alround freecarve -freeride setup to learn carving and go forward?

[Rob Stevens]

I'm happy to talk with you about this. I find your farm life pretty compelling, too.

In my experience, high angles made for great carving, but less than stellar slarving, or slide-carving, which I think is more difficult than railing around on intermediate terrain. This is mostly due to the use of knees and hips and how those movements differ from high angles to low.

On the Salomon Burner 171, my go to board for resort days, my angles are 28 and negative 5. I can EC toeside all I want, but heelside low carves are difficult because the edging mechanism is the hip alone, so you have to get pretty low. When you go to a higher angle on the rear, you can employ the knees before the hips and have both working laterally edge to edge, rather than tip to tail, regardless of what edge you're on.

For symmetrical carving, higher angles will trump lower ones everytime.

This changes when you go to off track terrain and sliding turns, especially where jumping is involved. While edging side to side is more symmetrical at higher angles, it will be easier to pressure fore and aft as well as side to side with low angles. You will also see an increased level of vertical movement (extension / compression) with low angles and in particular, duck. The stability of low angles is hard to beat.

There are some riders that can deviate from the above through mileage and sheer will. They will say that they ride everything well with high angles. They're probably right, but if it were true that maximum potential in freeriding could be achieved at high angles, all the top riders would be doing it, so I hesitate to agree that high angle FR is optimal.

With respect to the bindings you've chosen, their stiffness will not hold you back, you will somply grow into them and they will be a purchase that should last for many years. Weight aside, aluminum is about as tough as it gets. I would suggest that you can have a fairly relaxed forward lean with the Catek's as when you move against the highback, it will respond immediately, whereas a glass binding needs a bit more forward lean as it will flex before responding. It is this flex that can make it easier for a novice, or someone riding in rough terrain, as not every little mistake / irregularity will go straight to your legs.

Take a proper Posi #3 screwdriver up the hill with you and play with your angles. Increase them for carving and decrease them for FR. I would not go over 45 degrees for softboots to carve and personally, would not drop below 10 degrees front for FR. As for FR angles in the back, plus 10 through 0 to negative 5 should serve you well.

[docrob]

Rob, problem is, 15 degrees on the back foot gives me 2.8 cm overhang on the heel AND on the toe! It drops to 2X 0.6 cm at 20 degrees.

How would you modify your advice if atall?

[Rob Stevens]

Risers or a wider board is all you can do if you will tolerate no overhang. You will find you can get pretty railed over even at the levels of overhang you're talking about, but it will hold you back.

Truthfully, there are alot of boards that don't work well at high edge angles, with low binding angles, including some FR and FS boards. This is really saying something for me, as I only have a size 10 foot. I wish manufacturers would give ranges of width as well as length. Not just some choice, but multiple choices in multiple lengths. One of these days, I'll order something custom and be done with it.

I do want to speak to Bobs comment. Physiologically speaking, it is very difficult (I won't say impossible, but I have never seen it go down) to heelside EC with flat, FR angles. If you want to lay turns on both sides, it's probably not going to happen unless you turn the angles up.

[BlueB]

You've got the right idea: listen to Rob and ignore the "noise" coming from the rest of us...

To help your research a bit, there was a poll on softboot angles recently. The tread is here: http://www.bomberonline.com/vbulletin/poll.php?do=showresults&pollid=306

Or, do your own research on what average angles the SBX riders use. They have to carve well and jump well. Also, the modern BX boards would work great for what you want to do!

If you wanted that rear angle lower (which does work better for freeriding), you could always use the risers. Basic Palmers or Burtons are not even expensive on fleabay.

Earlier mentioned Nidecker 800 are great bindings, my favorite 2-strapper, so far. Almost too stif on the heel side, while I could use a bit more stifness on the toe side...

[BlueB]

Truthfully, there are alot of boards that don't work well at high edge angles, with low binding angles, including some FR and FS boards. This is really saying something for me, as I only have a size 10 foot. I wish manufacturers would give ranges of width as well as length. Not just some choice, but multiple choices in multiple lengths. One of these days, I'll order something custom and be done with it.

Rob, have you tried Kessler BX? All I can say: "holy smokes!". Or, talk to Prior about his prototypes of titanal FLC modified into BX. He's got one 163/25 that came out super stiff, but it might be ok for you.

[Rob Stevens]

Robertson and some of the local guys have those and I'm stoked to try one.