Technique advice saught...

[drummr25]

Hello all. I have about 10 years of snowboarding experience in softboots/bindings. I would classify myself as a strong intermediate rider. But with my increasing love of speed, ect. i know that the stiff setups of hardboots/bindings are the only way to go for me in the future.

I commited last year (and have ridden 3 times this year so far) to buying alpine equipment...and am just trying to make it work. It seems like i just end up skidding the rear of the board to scruff off speed when things start getting too quick- verses just making a sharp "carve" to do it. Not to mention- i'd need practically the whole trail width to make that "carve" to slow down if i did...a feat that's next to impossible riding around with 987050985 other new people on the hill, just waiting to clobber me. It's almost happened more than once. Also, it seems that finding a suitable trail for myself to learn has proven to be a challenge, as they are either too flat, or too steep. I've only seen like 2 other hardbooters so far, and they skidded around just like i do.

I mostly load up my front leg (goofy) for the edge to bite, and try to keep the rear light..as to not skid- but this causes fatigue. Should i adjust the rear binding so i can tuck that rear knee behind my front let more during turns? I have so many questions, and haven't been able to ride with anyone with the experience to answer yet. I'm not the type to ever give up, but this is frustrating...as i picked up "regular" snowboarding (no disrespect intended :)) and skiing very easily.

I live just outside of DC, so i mostly ride at Liberty and Whitetail in Pa. For what it's worth, i'm 6' 190lbs, 163" board, TD-1 bindings, Head Strats boots.

What did you good carvers have to do to get over this hurdle? Sorry for the long post, thanks in advance for any and all helpful replies!

-Billy

[Chris Houghton]

Sounds like you need to practice carved turns on a slope that is not as steep. Once you have some confidence in board control then you can advance to a steeper slope. Skidding off speed is the significant factor, it's impossible to work on technique when you are just trying to survive. We have all been there.

If you can get out on the hill early that would help, otherwise you are very much in the downhill crush of humanity.

[Corey]

Have you seen this? http://www.bomberonline.com/articles/welcome_center.cfm

Master 'the Norm' on shallow runs first. Really master it so that you can change turn radius and do it at slow and fast speeds. Then move on to slightly steeper runs and master it there. It's tough with no one else to learn from, but it's certainly possible to learn lots.

I set a goal to carve every single turn in a run, making sure I finished every turn going across the slope to reduce speed. At first I couldn't do it but after much effort I could. The keys (for me) were getting the next carve started well before I started heading downhill again and ensuring that I continued the turn until I was 90 degrees to the fall line. This is what Jack calls 'carving the downhill edge' in the above articles. Without those two things I kept building speed until I skidded a turn or fell.

I'm finding that as I gain more experience I'm able to carve tighter turns at lower speeds. This lets you ride steep stuff in a pretty narrow width if you want. Good luck!

[lamby]

What did you good carvers have to do to get over this hurdle?

I was fortunate enough to get good early instruction from Carvedog and others, and I did what you are doing too - trying to pick up every tid-bit of info I could and working on it. It is such a blast because it only gets better and better. Have fun and keep picking the brains of those here as you will get a lot of helpful advice.

I'm pretty out of it as far as how people are teaching carving, but something that helped me was to think about being dynamic on the board throughout the turn. To start the turn I want to move my weight to the front of the board, to engage the edge and get things started. As I move through the turn I'm getting into a more centered position on the board, and ending the turn with my weight perhaps more to the back of the deck.

Long winded and perhaps not how others would describe turn initiation, but thought I'd throw that out for the heck of it. Of course, weight at the end of the turn may not be back under all circumstances - depends on the turn you are making.

Anyway, good luck and have a blast! Pretty soon it will all feel like second nature and you will be going

[Puddy Tat]

Yeah. I'd been 'owning' a nice carving run in the city. Bay Street (city blue, mountain steep green) at Rabbit Hill under the lift, I could carve the hell out of it, and was killing speed to the point where I could only carve two turns before I'd have to let it run to pick-up a bit of speed (Coiler Schtub, TD3s SI, UPZ RTRs).

I was out at Marmot Basin after Christmas on my AM board (a '94 Kelly with TD3s and the UPZs) and saw a wide open face (under the chair). Angle didn't look that bad so I headed over to it. When I got on the face the pitch was probably twice what I was used to. It was wide open and empty (except of the people watching from the chair) and there was nowhere else to go but down so I gave it a go anyways. I dove into the first turn which was toeside and was completely unprepared for how fast the board picked up speed on that pitch. At which point I believe "Holy Cr*p" may have flashed through my mind and I unfortunately leaned back. Yeah bad idea. Lost the edge pressure, immediately followed by losing the edge. I think I slid at least a 100 ft downslope with the toeside edge skipping, and giving my shins that feeling that someone has just just hit them with a hockey stick about 20 times. After that I humbly and painfully did skid turns down to some shallower groomers where I could attempt to regain some dignity by doing linked carves in front of an adoring public. :rolleyes:

To the OP I agree with another poster when he indicated going and doing the norm. I was introducing one of my friends to a hardboot set-up the other day and he was having a difficult time not skidding it. I believe he descibed his first run as his body rebelling against the hardboots because his ankles wanted to flex in the turns. You've essentially got a bunch of muscle memories that need to be unlearned. When you get nervous or scared, you'll tend to fall back on techniques which you feel most comfortable with.

Cheers,

Dave

[BlueB]

... I mostly load up my front leg (goofy) for the edge to bite, and try to keep the rear light..as to not skid

This above cought my eye... It might be the actuall cause of the problem. You are on a short board, i.e. small sweet spot. It is easy to put TOO MUCH weight forward. Stick to the basics first: equal and simultanious pressure on both feet, to make shure you use the entire of the available edge, without introducing any twist or "kick". As someone said: "The Norm". As you get confortable with it, introduce the knees drive. Keep it simple again: simultanious drive of both knees to the side, to get higher edge angle. As you get better, you'll fine tue it with timing of weight distribution on longitudinal axis and with timing of flexion/extension. Introduction of flexion/extension ellement comes before the back/forth movement, in my oppinion.

[NateW]

I mostly load up my front leg (goofy) for the edge to bite, and try to keep the rear light..as to not skid- but this causes fatigue.

Center your stance.

Then keep your weight equal on each foot.

Now your weight is in the right place and your front leg doesn't wear out.

Works for me!

[carvedog]

I commited last year (and have ridden 3 times this year so far) to buying alpine equipment...and am just trying to make it work. It seems like i just end up skidding the rear of the board to scruff off speed when things start getting too quick- verses just making a sharp "carve" to do it. Not to mention- i'd need practically the whole trail width to make that "carve" to slow down if i did...

I mostly load up my front leg (goofy) for the edge to bite, and try to keep the rear light..as to not skid- but this causes fatigue. Should i adjust the rear binding so i can tuck that rear knee behind my front let more during turns?

-Billy

Hey Billy welcome.

Without seeing video it's a lot hard to get into analyzing what you are doing.

If you are in set the edge and park for the carve mode, you will run out of trail quickly. What lamby is saying about being more dynamic may be just the ticket.

tpalka also has some youtube videos for how to tune yourself in for carving that would be pretty good for someone at your level. search snowytom on youtube and you should find it. he goes through hands in front, hands behind back and several other things that are to help you center yourself on the board.

you should feel yourself like a big spring going up and down slowly at first and then more quickly if you need to do a quicker turn.

I also think about riding with "hanger" arms or gorilla arms. This is when I try not to do anything but let arms hang straight down my sides and then while turning bend my body enough to let my hands hit each boot top. don't know if that makes sense but it's purpose is to loosen up the spine. Think about slinky spine might work too.

I was fortunate enough to get good early instruction from Carvedog and others.....

I'm pretty out of it as far as how people are teaching carving, but something that helped me was to think about being dynamic on the board throughout the turn. To start the turn I want to move my weight to the front of the board, to engage the edge and get things started. As I move through the turn I'm getting into a more centered position on the board, and ending the turn with my weight perhaps more to the back of the deck.

Chris you are too kind. I always thought you were a pretty ripping, balanced rider from the start. The dynamic part is right on and the bit working the edge bit too.

Billy - think less about "weighting" one leg or the other and think more about feeding the edge or board through the turn.

Hope all this helps. The antidote to your overpopulated run problem is to come to Sun Valley and experience the joy of truly deserted slopes at times.

Good luck.

[drummr25]

thanks so much for all the replies so far guys...is much appreciated. I have read the "Norm" a few times...and will further analyze the info to actually put into use. It's so much easier for me to learn by watching someone in person...so i hope i get lucky enough to run into someone who knows what they are doing soon. ;-)

Also, do you think that this board is too small for me? I'm 6', 190 with a 28.5 Mondo. I was initially told that it would be "fine" to learn on...but i certainly don't want it to hinder me by having too small of a "sweet spot" or whatever. It's a Rentiger 163. I guess i just figured that faster speeds and perfect technique would constitute the larger board later, so while i'm learning this would be fine. Wrong?? On a sidenote: my other soft setup board is a Burton 162.

[Jack M]

That board will be good for learning on the gentler slopes, and it will also be good when you get better for doing shorter aggressive carves on steeps. Volkls are nice boards. Unless it's already all clapped out, you should be able to use it for a while. As you get better you will probably want something longer like a 170+, but the 163 will still be useful.

Definitely hang out on the gentler slopes while you learn. You will have more fun and learn more.

Think about keeping both knees moving forward throughout the turn. Start each turn on the front foot, and finish each turn on the back foot. "Feed" the board through the turn, then between each turn, pull it back.

Look where you want the carve to go, not just downhill.

Keep your left (rear) hand in sight (in other words, in front of you) at all times, and especially on heelside, punch it forward into the turn.

Welcome and good luck!

[Corey]

I'm 5'11", 205 lbs and ride that same board. It'll turn quite sharp once you ask it nicely. It gets uncomfortable if you go too fast though, it is a slalom board after all. Hang in there. I printed out a lot if articles and worked on doing one or two specific things per day - it's easy to get overwhelmed with all the advice out there!

One other tip that worked for me was trying to touch my boot cuff with my outside hand. That tends to get your body angulated properly, especially on the toe side.

[dingbat]

Drummr25,

I think what sometimes gets missed on this forum is that some folks need to start with just the basic basics. When I started hardbooting, I had no knowledge of what my basic core movement on the board should be so all the things I was trying to incorporate into my riding were not working as well as they should have been. It also made for very frustrating days trying to concentrate on all these little tips that didn't always seem to jive with one another. Out of frustration, and feeling like I was lacking resources, I approached the best carver on my hill , and asked him to teach me how to carve, from the begining, as though I knew nothing. This guy is a ski instructor. I don't think he's ever been on a snowboard in his life.

This is what I learned. It made a world of difference in my riding (hard and soft boots) and has tied together and made sense of most of the excellent advice I've gotten on this forum.

1) Do the "Norm". Jack's articles on this are great. I'm sure you saw the links to them posted above in this thread. Pay close attention in the first part of the article to this statement: " ...and your body aligned with the angle of your bindings." This means that your shoulders and hips are aligned with one another with no twist in your torso. they should be square to your knees and your feet. Turn just your head if you want to see where you are going.;) Stick to flat green cruisers and try not to mow down any kids. Do this first part of the Norm untill you've got it cold. In the second part of the article, Mr. Michaud suggests rotating your hips and shoulders to square them with the board and later when talking about putting presure on the edge states, "Therefore, we can do this by keeping our upper body upright and our shoulders level to the slope of the hill." I think if someone had a good background in proper skiing or alpine boarding technique and was just looking to learn to carve, this would make all sorts of sense, but lacking that, there are some spots that may need filling in.

2) For the next step, I suggest not concerning yourself with squaring your hips to the board. Save that step for later. Keep them square to your feet for now and concentrate on the "upper body upright" part of things. Start by picturing your torso, from your shoulders to your pelvis, as a flat, fixed plane. This plane will stay square to your feet and upright at all times. Put your arms straight down at your sides so they become part of the plane then bend your elbows so just your forearms stick straight out forward at a right angle with your hands open, palms facing the ground. They will remain fixed like that throughout the excersise.

3) You will move this entire fixed plane by one point where your lower gut meets your pelvis. There is a really cool word for this spot in tai chi, but I can't remember it so we'll just call it your center. Starting from centered over the board, with a moderate bend in your knees, cruise straight down a clear, green cruiser until you have enough speed to turn the board. You should have a pretty good sense of this after mastering the basic Norm turns. Now initiate a toeside turn by moving this fixed, upright plane, led by your center, at an angle across your board moving toward the nose and toeside. Also have your upper body rise off the board as you make this move. Even though you are rising off the board, the sensation will be that your center is dropping into the turn. Now you're in your toeside turn and need to set up for your heelside. Let your upper body drop straight down the side of the board toward the tail. Remember to keep the upright, fixed plane and lead from your center. This dropping back parallel to the side of the board is where the feeding the board forward thing comes into play. It makes for a smoother turn if you think of it as feeding the board forward rather than thinking about moving your upper body back and down. Once the board has been fed forward, and you've made as much turn as you'd like to make, transition to your heelside by making that same angular move only crossing at an angle toward your heelside and nose this time. Again, remember to lead with your center and keep the plane of your upper body fixed and upright. Once you drop into the turn, feed the board forward as you turn. This will bring you back into position to transition back to your toeside and continue the cycle.

4) Remember to keep your head in play and look at the actual path on the snow you want to travel, not over the nose of your board. If you find yourself looking over the nose, you'll most likely end up heading straight down hill at warp speed. Visualize the path that you'd like to travel on the snow. Sometimes it can help to imagine a dotted line you will follow or a lighted track like a curvy runway. The first thing down this path you envision should be your center with the plane of your upper body fixed around it, your legs and board should follow behind. Also keep in mind that even though the plane of your upper body is fixed, it should be relaxed so your body can respond freely to things that would try to upset your balance. By keeping your upper body upright and relaxed, your balance center can do its job naturaly and efficiently.

5) Once you've got this down cold on the flat stuff, take it to steeper and steeper stuff and be amazed at how hard you can carve and how slow you can make it. You will look ridiculous with that robotic fixed upper body and idiotic children will laugh at you. Don't sweat it though. Once you have this down you can start incorporating other stuff like squaring your body to the board and hand movements in the turns and transitions. You'll look like a badass in no time and the hot South American chicks that work the lifts will come running out to swoon over you when they see you.

Good luck, hope this helps.

[~tb]

Come up to the ECES!

Between riding with others, the clinics and the terrain, your riding will jump a whole level in the week!

[drummr25]

One other tip that worked for me was trying to touch my boot cuff with my outside hand. That tends to get your body angulated properly, especially on the toe side.

Since i ride goofy...does that mean when i'm heel-side, try to touch my left hand to the right boot- and toe-side, right hand to left boot?

Thanks for the great write-up *dingbat*, and all others. I'm certainly gonna try to take all this advice in steps- hopefully i'll be able to get out there tomorrow. I'm sure others will be able to check on this thread too if they are like me and hit this wall. :o

[twelsch42]

... 163" board, TD-1 bindings, Head Strats boots.

You can learn the norm on softboots with a much larger 'sweet spot' then you're getting with those stiff TD-1's and hardboots.

[Corey]

+1 million to ECES or any carve gathering. Find any means possible to get there, it'll give bigger rewards than any equipment purchase.

Since i ride goofy...does that mean when i'm heel-side, try to touch my left hand to the right boot- and toe-side, right hand to left boot?

Right order, but either hand to the right boot (front foot) for a goofy. It sets your body into the correct position to angulate the board. Look at the avatars even in this thread, most of them could easily drop their outside hand down onto their front boot if they wanted. BlueB couldn't but it wouldn't take much of a bend to do it. Dingbat is right though; focus on core movements first - like the norm carve.

I also found that most advice/articles didn't make sense when I first read them. Print them out and read them every now and then, as you learn more some of the stuff that was just confusing starts to make sense.

[Bobby Buggs]

You'll look like a badass and the hot South American chicks that work the lifts will come running out to swoon over you when they see you.

This is true, it happened to me last weekend:biggthump

[Michael Pukas]

Drummr25,

There is a really cool word for this spot in tai chi

It's called the dan tien - it is essentially your center - about 3 fingers below your navel and 3-4 fingers back from the front.

One of the bad habits I've been working on correcting is not bending forward from the waist. It's very easy to do, especially when you start to get sketched out. Once you bend from the waist, you shift your center of mass & balance, loose edge pressure, unload the board and let it run wild, among other things.

I've been using a technique from tai chi - that I've also applied to tele skiing - which is to bend the front knee, especially, and also staying soft in the hips. essentially sinking the center of mass by staying flexible in the knees and hips. I know, bending the knees seems intuitive, like how can you even ride w/out bending the knees? When I get sketched I tend to straighten the front knee a bit, stiffen the front hip and bend from the waist, reaching for the snow.

That's not to say that you have to bend the knees excessively - you can if you want to, and some times you may due to the caliber of the carve and the terrain. The knees and hips - primarily the front, and especially the hips - have to be mobile, flexible in order for the center to sink. That's one of the keys that improved my tele skiing significantly, and tele skiing is very similar to making a toe side carve. Just working on that has made a noticeable difference in my carving.