skategoat Posted October 19, 2004 Report Share Posted October 19, 2004 I don't know d-sub. I don't see the clear, direct link between surfing and snowboarding. Sure surfing was an influence but so was water-skiing, mono-skiing, cafeteria tray racing, you name it. Anything where you stood on a single board and tried to make it down a hill. As a kid, I remember trying to ride a toboggan standing up and later making my own Snurfer with a plank of wood and a rope. At that point, I had never seen the ocean let alone a surfer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D-Sub Posted October 19, 2004 Author Report Share Posted October 19, 2004 Originally posted by trikerdad 'Them' are Them using the foul language, Them sitting in a group right in the middle of a run, Them coming out of the trees into a run in front of you, Them running over your ride in the lift line, Them walking off with your ride and saying " oh, it looks just like mine", etc. I think most of Them have matured or moved on to other things because I don't see it as much as I used to, but it was pretty bad back in the mid 90's. We have a local mountain, closer than the one I go to now, that I quit going to because I didn't want to be associated with Them. Ive seen every single one of those behaviors in skiers as well. ESPECIALLY the sitting in the middle of the run thing one is an ******* BEFORE one chooses to ski or snowboard:) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D-Sub Posted October 19, 2004 Author Report Share Posted October 19, 2004 Originally posted by skategoat I don't know d-sub. I don't see the clear, direct link between surfing and snowboarding. Sure surfing was an influence but so was water-skiing, mono-skiing, cafeteria tray racing, you name it. Anything where you stood on a single board and tried to make it down a hill. As a kid, I remember trying to ride a toboggan standing up and later making my own Snurfer with a plank of wood and a rope. At that point, I had never seen the ocean let alone a surfer. ok...no direct relation. kinda a moot point tho alpine snowboarding IS related to freestyle and freeride snowboarding. the origin IS the same. agreed? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lonerider Posted October 20, 2004 Report Share Posted October 20, 2004 Originally posted by D-Sub Ive seen every single one of those behaviors in skiers as well. ESPECIALLY the sitting in the middle of the run thing one is an ******* BEFORE one chooses to ski or snowboard:) I don't really know the true origins of "snowboarding" but on this topic I agree. Poor behavior is not isolated to any particular sport (ski, snowboard, skiboard, etc). The only difference happens when people try to pretend that "their" group is better... same things with sport teams, etc... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skategoat Posted October 20, 2004 Report Share Posted October 20, 2004 Common origin - agreed. To me, alpine is the penultimate progression. It's where snowboarding should have ended up and I think more and more soft booters will end up there. I thought soft booting was pretty easy. Skid, scrape, the odd jump. But, this alpine stuff is hard! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slopetool Posted October 20, 2004 Report Share Posted October 20, 2004 Fruitbooting is a Crime I've always leaned toward innertubing but got into cross-country with the family. I still love it. Skied, blah, blah, blah started boarding in '84 stopped skiing in '87 rode with ski boots in '89 switched to softies back and forth rode with AT boots until '99 then switched to stiff clicker boots now I ride both whenever and I started skiing again occassionaly And I do own a silver saucer (anyone seen Saucerman?) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lonerider Posted October 20, 2004 Report Share Posted October 20, 2004 Originally posted by skategoat Common origin - agreed. To me, alpine is the penultimate progression. It's where snowboarding should have ended up and I think more and more soft booters will end up there. I thought soft booting was pretty easy. Skid, scrape, the odd jump. But, this alpine stuff is hard! I'm not sure alpine is the evolutionary successor to softboots... consider it is as old. While it is merely "endangered" now, coming back from the brink of extinction thanks to the internet (allowing for online community and access to equipment that simply wasn't possible before) - I seriously doubt that it will ever comeback to overtake freeriding to become the dominant "subspecies." The way I see it, there is nothing "fundamentally" different between softboot and hardboot setups such that you can do something on one type, but not the other - it's really more of "degree." You say "alpine" stuff is hard. I think you should separate "alpine stuff" from "carving hard." I believe that "carving hard and clean" is difficult... no matter if you are on an alpine board, freeride board, or skis. From that perspective... it is *easier* to carve hard on alpine setup. Skis, freestyle, alpine... to the beginner they all seem the same (sliding downhill on snow). To the intermediate their differences become apparent separate. To the master they all blend back into one ... it's very Zen-like ;) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D-Sub Posted October 20, 2004 Author Report Share Posted October 20, 2004 Originally posted by skategoat Common origin - agreed. To me, alpine is the penultimate progression. It's where snowboarding should have ended up and I think more and more soft booters will end up there. I thought soft booting was pretty easy. Skid, scrape, the odd jump. But, this alpine stuff is hard! youre oversimplifying drastically, and once again making a distinction (and, somewhat indirectly, a statement of superiority) yes, a pure carve is difficult, but is it as difficult as some of the moves done in freestyle now? Or...is..say...a couloir 50* pitch done in softboots less ballsy or impressive? I dunno...Im not keen on manufactured distinctions anymore is all, and I certainly identify more with "them" than "skiers" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skategoat Posted October 20, 2004 Report Share Posted October 20, 2004 I was oversimplifying for sure. The freestyle tricks are impressive as hell and really hard and take a lot of cajones. I was talking about free-riding really. To get the hang of freeriding on soft gear took me no time at all. An initial learning curve, a couple of head slamming falls and then I was there. Then I got bored. I realize now that the real problem was the limitation in the equipment for the type of riding I wanted to do. I was trying to ride fast and carve with soft gear. It took me a while to find out about alpine. Now I am finding that mastering clean carves on steep terrain on both toe and heel sides is really tough. I'm working on it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D-Sub Posted October 20, 2004 Author Report Share Posted October 20, 2004 not to keep beating on this..but... "freeriding" involves a lot more, too. would depend on the mountain you are at of course. but yes, solid carves are much harder than sliding around and the occasional jump:) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest AlpentalRider Posted October 20, 2004 Report Share Posted October 20, 2004 Originally posted by skategoat I was oversimplifying for sure. The freestyle tricks are impressive as hell and really hard and take a lot of cajones. I was talking about free-riding really. To get the hang of freeriding on soft gear took me no time at all. An initial learning curve, a couple of head slamming falls and then I was there. Then I got bored. I realize now that the real problem was the limitation in the equipment for the type of riding I wanted to do. I was trying to ride fast and carve with soft gear. It took me a while to find out about alpine. Now I am finding that mastering clean carves on steep terrain on both toe and heel sides is really tough. I'm working on it. The kind of freeriding you describe doesn't sound like what I would consider real advanced freeriding. Come ride the backcountry terrain with me on your freeride setup and tell me if you get bored. The plain and simple truth is that freestyle, freeriding, and alpine are three distinct styles which all require high levels of skill to truly master and become proficient in. The only limitation to the advancement in those disciplines lies in the person attempting them. I'm 32, skied for 6 years, am going on my 10th year of freeriding. When I took on alpine riding 3 years ago it took me all of 3 runs to be able to carve deep, clean lines. The reason, because my freeriding technique in softies set me up perfectly for alpine. Matter of fact I was so shocked at how easy it was to ride an alpine setup when compared to my freeride gear. I now love doing both because each style helps improve my technique in the other. To me they are very complimentary. I do agree that there are alot of people on the hill in softies who don't know how to ride, or are just plain rude. But that's not because they are softie riders, that's because they are rude, unskilled people who just happen to have purchased softies gear. Guys like me and my buddies who truly know how to freeride in softy gear are in the backcountry, and not on the groomers. So the chances of you bumping into us is pretty slim. Bottom line is measure the individual by their skills and behavior, not by the gear they happen to use. Alpine, freeride, and freestyle are all on equal footing, one is not better then the other. It's only a personal preference. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lonerider Posted October 20, 2004 Report Share Posted October 20, 2004 Originally posted by D-Sub Originally posted by skategoatI thought soft booting was pretty easy. Skid, scrape, the odd jump. But, this alpine stuff is hard! youre oversimplifying drastically, and once again making a distinction (and, somewhat indirectly, a statement of superiority)I dunno...Im not keen on manufactured distinctions anymore is all, and I certainly identify more with "them" than "skiers" Well that's because skategoat was a skiier, until he recently "seen the light" ;) :D :p Seriously though... I too never understood this need to distinguish between "us" and "them"... it's really should be a thing of the past I think. It's a new millenium now... time to get rid of "old school rivalries"!!! At my school's "Snowboard Club" we fully welcomed skiiers to come join us on the trips ... we had hundreds of snowboarders and skiiers peacefully coexisting together. We didn't see each other as "two plankers" or "knuckle draggers" we were just a bunch of friends hanging out together going to having fun together on the snow. Shouldn't that be how it is in general? Originally posted by AlpentalRider The kind of freeriding you describe doesn't sound like what I would consider real advanced freeriding. Come ride the backcountry terrain with me on your freeride setup and tell me if you get bored. The plain and simple truth is that freestyle, freeriding, and alpine are three distinct styles which all require high levels of skill to truly master and become proficient in. The only limitation to the advancement in those disciplines lies in the person attempting them. Bottom line is measure the individual by their skills and behavior, not by the gear they happen to use. Alpine, freeride, and freestyle are all on equal footing, one is not better then the other. It's only a personal preference. Yea, I agree. That's what I was trying to say in my previous "Zen of Carving" post - in the end it's not the equipment. Alpine gear might make it easier for some people to learn how to ride and carve hard... but the type of equipment isn't fundemental to carving. The better you get, the more you realize that the techniques you learn alpine riding are applicable to freeriding and vice versa. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skategoat Posted October 20, 2004 Report Share Posted October 20, 2004 lonerider, you are right. But I am going to try two planks again this year. What I really like about this sport (all downhill snow sports) in the past 5-7 years is the diversity of equipment and styles. Remember the days when you would get your lift ticket pulled for catching air of any kind? Now I look at the table jumps and wish I was still 21 and able to take the hard knocks. I love seeing all the different gear that people use now. Twin tips, telemark, blades, etc. Alpental: I ride in the East. In Ontario. Our idea of back-country is the mounds of snow in the parking lots. Believe me, you would get bored riding here. The highest vertical within 6 hours drive is 700 feet. That's why I took up alpine. It was a challenge and it was enjoyable on groomers, hardpack and boilerplate. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skywalker Posted October 20, 2004 Report Share Posted October 20, 2004 thre are some things I would like to say about "them" and "us": In the beginning of snowboarding on the slopes (in mentionable numbers) in the 80s there were a lot of skiers of reasonable skills on the slopes. And not many snowboarders, but most of the basolute beginners (--> "them"). This even bacame worse with more people starting to be on the slopes with a snowboard and even more beginners. You could see snowboarders without any idea of how to use their gear, how to behave on the slopes and in alpine at all. Today there are some hardbooters of rather high level skills on the slopes. Also some skiiers with various levels (maybe bacause many of th enthusiastics changed to snowboarding) and also many many softbooters with various skills. In fact most of the absolute beginners and most of those who don't care use intermediate softboot-equipment, which looks like freeride. Also some of these use old skis or tose very short skis (I think you call them fruit-boots). These are detected as obstacles, as unkind, as beginners, as "them". I think most of us respect verybody else with a considerable level of riding skills, independently from the gear he uses. But of course sometimes it's hard to do so with those who don't care about consideration at all. And we should learn to be more patient with the beginners. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
patmoore Posted October 20, 2004 Report Share Posted October 20, 2004 I started skiing in Bertchesgarden in the Bavarian Alps in 1956 and last skied at Mt. Tom in Holyoke, MA in 1962. Got divorced in 1993 and joined a ski club in 1996 to meet women (it worked - met my present wife there). A year later I tried boarding and bought a 168 cm Burton Air and saw my first hardbooter at Okemo. I bought my first alpine board the next weekend. Today I split my time between racing on skis, cruising and racing on an alpine board and occasionally riding a soft boot setup. It's a convoluted response but I think that answers the original question. Pat Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lonerider Posted October 20, 2004 Report Share Posted October 20, 2004 Originally posted by skategoat lonerider, you are right. But I am going to try two planks again this year. What I really like about this sport (all downhill snow sports) in the past 5-7 years is the diversity of equipment and styles. I love seeing all the different gear that people use now. Twin tips, telemark, blades, etc. No worries... if alpine boards can reignite your passion for downhill of any type, and make skiing fun again... all the better. I totally agree that it's all about diversity of equipment and styles - there are many types of people with different personal preferences... so it only fits that there are several types of gear to match them as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon Dahl Posted October 20, 2004 Report Share Posted October 20, 2004 most "freeriders" do not see any advantage to a carved turn of any sort. I saw the light when I first started linking carved turns on my soft gear, and fully switched to hard boots for all my riding, because of foot comfort issues. Hard boots rule, believe it or not, in the backcountry for all the reasons they do with carved turns on cord. Yes, skidding may be needed sometimes, but ALL the time? I think NOT! I think most of us think that (skidded turns) when we think freeride. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D-Sub Posted October 20, 2004 Author Report Share Posted October 20, 2004 Originally posted by Jon Dahl most "freeriders" do not see any advantage to a carved turn of any sort. I saw the light when I first started linking carved turns on my soft gear, and fully switched to hard boots for all my riding, because of foot comfort issues. Hard boots rule, believe it or not, in the backcountry for all the reasons they do with carved turns on cord. Yes, skidding may be needed sometimes, but ALL the time? I think NOT! I think most of us think that (skidded turns) when we think freeride. you must be watching different riders than I am. Turns are carved in the halfpipe, between hits in the park, and DEFINITELY in the backcountry yes, some sliding/skidding is necessary. Hell, I do it on my alpine setup sometimes because I get going too fast and havent convinced myself that going uphill will do it. anyway...I guess the argument will keep goin, because people rarely if ever allow their perception to change. you know whats funniest of all? I started on an alpine setup in 95 when I was livin in steamboat. I rode with a bunch of baggy pants havin dudes because I didnt know any other carvers. Well..actually..my aussie housemates, so I rode with them when given the chance, and a super cool cutie named Laura from New Hampshire I believe one week anyway...one night I was sittin out in front of Heavenly Daze bar, waitin for a ride, and Im talkin to this group about how fun today was and how fun tomorrow is gonna be, and this dude says: "Youre that Euro Fag in hard boots, huh?" uh...Im actually from california, but yeah, Ive been riding hardboots a lot lately cuz its fun. "**** that bull****, man. Fckin EuroFag" and the guy wanted to FIGHT ME! Honest to god his face was read and he had inched his way closer to me. Thank god I was bigger and not scared or he certainly would have attacked me this was from a snowboarder for chrissakes. sad Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lonerider Posted October 20, 2004 Report Share Posted October 20, 2004 Originally posted by Jon Dahl most "freeriders" do not see any advantage to a carved turn of any sort. I saw the light when I first started linking carved turns on my soft gear, and fully switched to hard boots for all my riding, because of foot comfort issues. Hard boots rule, believe it or not, in the backcountry for all the reasons they do with carved turns on cord. Yes, skidding may be needed sometimes, but ALL the time? I think NOT! I think most of us think that (skidded turns) when we think freeride. I agree if you realize that by default all beginner snowboarders are freeriders, so you need to equate skidding with "beginners" and not with "snowboarders" with skidding (common misconception). So while most novice and low intermediate riders, which comprise the majority of snowboarders you see on the groomed slopes, don't see the advantage of carved turns, "freeriding" has nothing to do with skidding. Most beginner/intermediates (on snowboards OR skis) don't even know really known what "carved turns" are yet until someone tells them. When I was a just starting to snowboard, a friend who was a veteran snowboarder suggested that I try it. I listened to him and it opened my mind, that type of riding it simply never occurred to me before that moment. Fast forward several years, and now I'm the "veteran" snowboarder and many of my friends have picked it up from watching me ride down the slopes. Again, many of them were able link carved turns once they tried, it just never occurs to them that they can do that. So again, it isn't the equipment... it's the rider and his/her mindset. Alpine gear is good because it gets you into thinking "carve," but you can think "carve" on a freeride board too with the proper guidance. As D-Sub mentioned, advanced freestyle/freeriders in the halfpipe and in the backcounry (where you probably can't see them) DO carve. Years ago, even though at the time we were spending around 50% of our time in the park and pipe, my friends and I would see hardbooters and thought it looked like fun, but never could find a place to rent them... so there are hardbooter converts waiting out there... we just need to show them what carving is and give them information on how to get alpine gear (and maybe drop the final hints of our '80s skiier-snob attitude, which went out of fashion two decades ago). I'm sure some people love alpine boots in the backcountry... the point is that it's a personal preference - my friend (the same friend who taught me to carve), now rides backcountry now... and occasionally he rides down on a snowskate deck (he won it in a halfpipe contest and wasn't able to sell it on Ebay) with bungie cords added on for straps. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon Dahl Posted October 20, 2004 Report Share Posted October 20, 2004 to some extent that advanced halfpipe riders do carve in the pipe, that being said, most advanced intermediate riders (more proper classification) don't get the basics of edge control, ie carved turns. Notice I said most. Doesn't matter where I've ridden, Colorado or Washington, I see very little of it done on purpose, especially softbooters. I've been preaching the benifits of it to all I know, and to no avail. Must just be me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeffrey Day Posted October 21, 2004 Report Share Posted October 21, 2004 I started skiing in 86/87 season. Picked up snowboarding in softies in 96! Never touched the skiis again! Kinda sorta soft boot carved from 98-00! Picked up first carving set-up at the end of 00! Now I ride my alpine gear 90%...softies 10%! Snowboarding as a life-style:priceless! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
philfell Posted October 23, 2004 Report Share Posted October 23, 2004 I skied a few times at a ski area in '88, but the same winter I was crushing the pow at my local golf course with my black snow. Started to snowboard with my k-mart boots in '90 (my feet were so small I only could heelside slip because I would fall out of my bindings if I went to my toe side.) Started "carving" with soft boot, flex bindings, and a PJ 4.9 in '92. Went to hard boots in '93. Started skiing a few days a year again in '97. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boostertwo Posted October 23, 2004 Report Share Posted October 23, 2004 <img src="http://tinypic.com/dzkom"> Started snurfing in '68. Started alpine skiing in '72 and was stoked on the speed and the lifts. Continued skiing and snurfing throughout my youth, and started snowboarding more or less exclusively since 1983 (when we were hiking ski areas for our vertical--and getting hassled by ski area management for doing so). Started riding lifts in '84 at good ol' Jay Peak in Vermont (where I don't think snowboarding was ever prohibited) and didn't ski much after that. First rode hard boots in '88, and have ridden them more often than any other gear since--though I still ride softies and alpine and tele ski whenever the conditions are right. Looking forward to a great winter! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest AlpentalRider Posted October 24, 2004 Report Share Posted October 24, 2004 Originally posted by Jon Dahl to some extent that advanced halfpipe riders do carve in the pipe, that being said, most advanced intermediate riders (more proper classification) don't get the basics of edge control, ie carved turns. Notice I said most. Doesn't matter where I've ridden, Colorado or Washington, I see very little of it done on purpose, especially softbooters. I've been preaching the benifits of it to all I know, and to no avail. Must just be me. think the problem is you are improperly classifying those "advanced intermediate" freeriders. To me, an intermediate freerider needs to be able to properly link turns. If they can't do that, then they are not an intermediate, they are somewhere between intermediate and beginner. I do agree that there are very few advanced to expert level freeriders on a given hill. Most everyone you run into are between beginner and intermdiate level. The only time I run into other expert riders is in the backcountry. That's where expert softboot riders tend to congregate (and where I do 90% of my riding). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Baka Dasai Posted October 24, 2004 Report Share Posted October 24, 2004 Originally posted by patmoore saw my first hardbooter at Okemo. I bought my first alpine board the next weekend. Back when I was a skier, I used to look at the (minimal) sidecut of my skis and think about bending them into an arc and carving a turn. But it couldn't really be done - there just wasn't enough sidecut. Still, the idea was there in my head. Then in the early 90s I saw a guy on a snowboard laying down perfect carves. I almost started jumping up and down in excitement - that was what I wanted to do! That's what I'd been dreaming about! Here was somebody actually doing it (albeit on a snowboard)! I'd been carving in my dreams for years. I just had to wait for the equipment to catch up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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