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Do we not want to win because we are better snowboarder and not because of better equipement?

This argument has been over for decades. Witness break-away ski gates, Derbyflex plates, flexible pole vault poles, full body hydrodynamic swim suits, clapper free-heel speed skates, spring loaded gymnastics floors, and oh yeah, sidecut on skis. These and many other innovations have shattered previous world records.

Does this type of plate make the SW moot as even simple flat bindings will be able to flex?! hmmmnnn.

I don't follow you...?

Nice pictures!

My engineering analysis:

It looks like this will decouple the board's bending in a carve from the rider's legs while still maintaining a stiff connection from edge to edge. When you bend a board into an arc without this plate it would naturally force your knees together. Conversely the board's stifness would be higher near the bindings without this plate as your knees will resist this motion somewhat.

I can only guess that the extra length out front is to add a supplemental spring if the board bends far enough, kind of like the supplemental 'towing' springs on a leaf-spring eqipped truck. Without that it might be possible that they were snapping boards from allowing a little too much bending.

The rubber-looking bellows that are normally around it likely either:

- pevent snow from accumulating under the plate, messing up this effect

- is an air chamber that allows the rider to change the stiffness of the system by adjusting the pressure

or

- is simply there just to conceal its details

The VIST and Hangle plates don't have this decoupling, they only spread the point load from the bindings over a bigger area. The aluminum home-made-looking system is likely similar but I haven't seen many pictures of it.

Cool stuff, I'm interested to hear reviews from capable riders of all the systems once they're available for public use.

I generally agree with your analysis, but I have to keep my mouth shut.

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  • 3 weeks later...

Video clip from Daily Planet (Canadian science news show) with two guys from Apex: http://www.adrive.com/public/cb6b33224378d9ecb3c812e3dda18d26237db91fe7777156a8b9483f80ba03dd.html

50.6 MB file in .wmv format. Mac users will need to download VideoLan (or some other software) to watch it.

I called it! ;)

It looks like this will decouple the board's bending in a carve from the rider's legs while still maintaining a stiff connection from edge to edge. When you bend a board into an arc without this plate it would naturally force your knees together. Conversely the board's stifness would be higher near the bindings without this plate as your knees will resist this motion somewhat.

...

The VIST and Hangle plates don't have this decoupling, they only spread the point load from the bindings over a bigger area.

I'm really anxious to see all the different plates in use at the Olympics and to hear all the tech details after.

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It has always puzzled me why there has been little discussion of Benjamin Karl's plate system on the Bomber site. He has been using it with considerable success yet people seem fixated on the Vist & Hangl systems. He appears to be using a fairly hefty aluminium plates and rails combination to create a rigid binding plate.

From screenshots of the flv. file from the newspaper site, the Apex Composites plate appears to be a close to rigid carbon fibre plate.

Any kind of plate of this type (B Karl, Apex Comp) needs a hinge mechanism at both front and rear attachment points to the board to allow the board to flex underneath. It also needs at least one of those attachment points to be able to slide back and forth approx. 0.5 - 1cm to complete the process of decoupling the plate from the board.

As the Apex guys say in their Daily Planet appearance, the linkage to the snowboard is the key to the success (and strength and durability) of the design.

I haven't been able to find really detailed photos of the hinge/slide linkage on Benjamin Karl's board. Some detail from what I've been able to find is in the next post.

However, the Apex screen shots provide some interesting hints.

Firstly, whereas Karl has his heel & toe pieces directly fixed to the plate, Apex appears to have standard snowboard binding fixation points in it's plate, obscured by tape the pattern can be seen in the group shot around the board.

Secondly, the hinge and slide is likely to be in the sole of the carbon fibre plate, given the silhouette of the rear aluminium attachment point and plate.

Thirdly, I suspect that the plate is attached to the board by two long bolts running across the full width of the hinge mechanism. This would allow easy assembly/removal of the plate/hinge mechanism from the board.

Fourth, that the main adjustment required for different riders is appropriate placement of the hinge mechanism in relation to riders stance distance and binding angles.

I'm guessing now, but I suspect that the part of the Apex plate ahead of the front binding is primarily a billboard for the manufacturer. I can see no purpose for it to be there. If there was a functional purpose, why not a similar extension at the rear.

SunSurfer

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Attached photos of Benjamin Karl's plate/hinge system. Does anyone have anything with more detail?

I've taken an interest in this because over our off-season I'm working on a home made decoupling plate which would attach to the conventional mount points on a snowboard. At present I'm working on a plate design similar to Karl's but using different materials. One option I had wondered about was making a one piece, cambered, relatively stiff, flexible plate to add a component of shock absorption to system, a little like a slalom skateboard deck in construction.

I'm still looking at hinge options, in either marine stainless steel or aluminium, while the parts that attach to the snowboard are UHMWPE for strength, flexibility and low friction.

SunSurfer

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I was wondering the same thing ... Karl´s plate should have provoked more interest ... and Fischnaller is also using this plate now ...

I don´t think that the front part of the Apex is just for show ... they were talking about how they can customise their plate for the different riders and if you look at the setting of Anderson and Lambert you will find that they have a completely different setup. The position of the plate is totally different ...

Karl´s plate and the Apex plate both seem to be fixed to the board near the edges and not the middle (4x4) ...

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My guess is the front 'diving board' part is designed to engage at some point in the board's flex to add stiffness. If you imagine running over a 1.5" ridge or upwards step, the nose is going to bend upwards to climb over it while your feet are still at the previous level. Once the 'diving board' contacts the board it adds stiffness to the system, helping to lift the feet off the snow to limit how much stress the board is put under. As your feet cross over and past the ridge, the stress on the tail is fraction of that on the nose as there's no need to accelerate the rider upwards. That's why I think there's no similar extension on the tail.

B. Karl's plate was definitely an inspiration for the Apex Composites design, I have to assume they tested something similar and found some benefits if they keep using the big extension off the front.

Both are all about decoupling the rider's lower leg angle from the curvature in the board. The Apex design adds a supplemental spring to limit board curvature at some point, but the rider's front lower leg is then coupled somewhat to the board at that point.

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Been there done that. I presently have a working prototype and it is unbelievable. Turns a VW into a BMW or a proir into a coiler!!!! If any one is interested and has an old or dead board they no longer use i can make you one for $50.00 you supply old board and shipping. Send your email i'll send pics.

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I'm guessing now, but I suspect that the part of the Apex plate ahead of the front binding is primarily a billboard for the manufacturer. I can see no purpose for it to be there. If there was a functional purpose, why not a similar extension at the rear. SunSurfer

It seems to me that a lot of the new-school race shapes have softer de-cambered noses to facilitate smoother turn initiation, and that this overhang my serve to stiffen up the nose, once it has been de-cambered to the extent that it touches the board. That's my guess. It seems to me that on a product slated for top-level olympic competition that they wouldn't have any room for non-functional flourishes, but I could be wrong.

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Hey, didn´t you read my post :mad::ices_ange ...

On Lambert´s board the plate is setup so that it ends behind the back binding and there is a long part in front of the front binding.

But on Anderson´s board the plate is longer behind the back binding than it is in front of the front binding.

At least that´s the way the boards were setup on the WC at Kreischberg ... so it seems that there are different options for placement with different effects ...

I also heard that Karl´s plate suits and supports his special style while the plate would be almost unrideable for Grabner ... can´t tell you more, but it seems that the plates can compensate or improve certain aspects of different riding styles.

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Interesting, the only pictures I'd seen always had the long part in front. That blows my guess out of the water then. Either way, I'm hoping for some cool techno-geek articles on any and all of these plates and how their various adjustments change things.

Any demos at SES? ;) LOL!

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Watching the Tyler Jewell race & training videos, I see that the Tinkler plate he is using also has a forward extension. That argues against my billboard hypothesis. It is unlikely that the feature would be there in two independent designs, and from what I've seen of other Tinkler designs, function overrides form.

I still think that the length of the extensions is probably too short to act as an effective damper for all but the most extreme nose burying scenarios. The snowboard would still bend in a curve initially and for the snowboard top surface to engage the plate tip, the tip of the board would need to have risen an extraordinary distance.

Evidence to support the snowboard nose damping hypothesis would only be found in photos showing the board plate relationship deep in a hard turn. Either that, or evidence of scuff marks on the board topsheet just under the tip of the plate extension.

SunSurfer

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There seems to be a huge chunk of neoprene (or similar) rubber under the front portion of the board. That would add damping mass, as well as engage the plate very gradually as the foam compresses, rather then abrupt sudden engagement. If they added a bit of thin p-tex at the bottom of that foam, it would slide on the board surface nicelly.

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This photo and blow up from Getty Images from an "FIS snowboard" search.

JJ's plate at Telluride now clearly extended front and rear, and at the rear the plate profile and its' shadow suggest there's nothing between plate and board.

Snowfun4you's vid on blip.tv clearly shows JJ using only a forward extension at RTTC in Nov 2009. Again, a close look at that vid suggests nothing between board and plate extensions.

Things start to stack up for the damping nose & tail motion hypothesis.

SunSurfer

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