shin bang, bruising to rubbing

[Wun]

i used to have the bruising type of shin bang from pressure pointing that left bruises about 1.5cm in diameter on each leg. went to bootfitters, they said that the most likely fix without having to perform surgery on boots was the eliminator tongue shims.

it relieved the bruising, all right, but now i have the rubbing shin bang. needless to say, the affected areas sting when in physical contact with anything.

as you can see from the picture (goofy, this is the rear left leg. right leg gets the shin bang too but a little bit milder), the pressure is distributed, as hinted by the sock impression (i use the thin kind that goes up to almost the knees). from here, i've thought of buying the thin plastic sheet kind of kitchen cutting boards and cutting some of it and sticking it in the insides of my socks. that, or dropping another 40 bucks on a booster strap, but i'm tight on $$

can i get some outside thoughts? any other ideas? i've seen tiger balm suggested on other threads of rubbing shin bang, but i'd prefer a prevention measure rather than letting the damage happen and having a post-session fix.

[Ear dragger]

I was plagued by shin bang my self for a long time.It would get to the point that half a day or riding was almost unbearable. You should get custom liners. try to find the tallest liners possible. I've got dallbello "silver" liners and they stick up out of the boot probably 4 inches or so. If you can't afford them, another thing i found out is riding with you're boots not clamped down hard will give the nasty shin bang as well. you really need to crank yourself into that boot. My shins used to blow up like golf balls all the time. But now with liners and crankin down pretty hard on the boots (don't cut off circulation) I'm a happy camper:)

[Hans]

Buy yourself a thick (6mm at least) piece of neopreen and drop that on your shins over your socks between your boots. It will give a high pressure at first but that will disappear. This is instead of using shintronics from Manoove. Place them like the shintronics (www.manoove.com)

[Dave ESPI]

You could shave/nare your shins, and also what kind of socks do you wear?

Alot of the irritation can be alieviated also by adjusting your stance a bit. perhaps you may be a bit too wide, or could use some toe / heel lift? Just a stab in the dark as another possability.

HTH

[queequeg]

I see you are in a pair of Head Stratos Pros: I have dealt with shinbang on these boots.

How tall are you and how much do you weigh?

Do you have a BTS on your boot? Have you modified the shells to make the forward lean work?

You look like you have fairly low volume calves. This boot has a wide-ish cuff, and is pretty stiff in the forward-lean department as it comes stock. My guess is that your problem is a result of: low volume calf in big volume cuff + stiff forward lean mechanism in the HSP that (in my opinion) is very problemmatic. I would recommend getting yourself a Dalbello Liner (silver or gold). A booster strap, and if you haven't - sticking a BTS on your boots and modifying the shells so that the forward lean of the boot works like a snowboard boot should. See this thread regarding the HSP forward lean situation/modifications:

http://bomberonline.com/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=190270&postcount=9

Shin bang is no fun. I've actually managed to remove skin from my shins as a result of riding with unmanaged shin-bang/rubbing. If you have shin bang it could be because:

- your boots are a loose fit around your calf all around.

It may be that you have narrow calves, or that your liners are packed in severely. If you don't have a thermo liner I would get one. I second what Ear Dragger said about the Dalbello Liners - they kick ass. Have them molded by somebody who knows what they are doing and you will not regret it. These liners have a nice wrap in front of the calf and will take up a lot of volume. Otherwise, you can also look at relocating your buckles so that the top of your boot tightens down better. You could also try the eliminator tongue (go to tognar.com).

- the pressure from your boot cuff is not being distributed evenly along the whole length of your shin, such that one area is taking most of the pressure (usually the top).

It may be that you have burly calves at the top, and thin at the bottom so that the pressure of the cuff is being taken at the top of your shin and the bottom is not doing any work. Or it could be that your liners are not properly molded.

Again: the dalbello liner can help you here when properly molded.

- The rear boot cuff is not set to the correct forward lean position.

If your rear boot cuff is not set to the correct forward lean position this can cause shin-bang as well, particularly if you are in a stiff boot. You should not have to put (significant) pressure on the boot to get into your crouched, neutral position where your rear knee is pointing forward somewhat and your front hip is dropped back.

You could shave/nare your shins, and also what kind of socks do you wear?

Alot of the irritation can be alieviated also by adjusting your stance a bit. perhaps you may be a bit too wide, or could use some toe / heel lift? Just a stab in the dark as another possability.

HTH

I disagree with most of this: you can't stop shinbang by shaving your legs, and 99% of shinbang problems are a fit issue, they have very little to do with your stance unless you are doing something *seriously* wrong like toe lift in the rear boot or something.

[zoltan]

I had this problem as well since my legs are, shall we say, low volume. Unfortunately, there wasn't a lower volume boot I knew of than my Deeluxe, so I had to find a way to fix it. I didn't like any of my purchasable options, so instead I bought a big sheet of boot fitting foam, and laid out two layers on the inside of the cuff down to the pivot, and on the back side of the tongue. It took quite a while since I had to make sure nothing would interfere with the movement of the boot. Once I was done the boot fit nice and snug, the cuff wasn't pinching closed, and no more issues with it rubbing my shin or shin bang.

[bobdea]

You could shave/nare your shins, and also what kind of socks do you wear?

Alot of the irritation can be alieviated also by adjusting your stance a bit. perhaps you may be a bit too wide, or could use some toe / heel lift? Just a stab in the dark as another possability.

HTH

OMG, don't listen to this dude. you don't need to shave your legs to snowboard.

[queequeg]

Otherwise: are you on the stock liner or a thermo?

[Michael Pukas]

I think everything the Quee said is spot on. I've never had shin bang issues - but I've had plenty of other foot pain and fit problems. I've become fairly fanatical about getting my boots to fit properly. My guess is your boots do not fit properly - they could be the wrong size - too big - or the Heads just don't fit your feet.

Start with properly shell sizing your boots. If your shells are the correct size, then I'd look to a new liner. Looks to me like it's a abrasion issue, meaning the liners are not holding your shins properly and you're getting movement.

[Thor VonRippington]

I think everything the Quee said is spot on.

+1

Good post q...

your boots should move... body parts in the boots should not

[bobdea]

ohh, BTW for me shin bang is usually me making poor contact with the tongue

solution is either a booster strap or riding my boots tighter on the top buckle

just me though

usually it's a volume issue though if people are really complaining.

[Skully]

OMG, don't listen to this dude. you don't need to shave your legs to snowboard.

Are you serious Bob?

Don't you remember that Coca-Cola commercial with Lance Armstrong at a Nascar event?

Driver: "Is it true you shave your legs?"

Lance: "Shaving your legs stimulates nerver endings under the skin, that activates neurons in the brain creating a surge of adrenalin, so you're faster."

(Cut to shot of Driver shaving his legs.....)

EVERYONE who rides an alpine board should shave their legs, so as to ride faster....

Back to your normally schedule program....

[Wun]

ack. posted and went to sleep, and i wake up to a barrage of people trying to help me out

some answers that you guys are asking for:

-i already crank down my boots pretty hard to where sometimes i'm losing circulation.

-completely stock setup. no surgery done, no cutting done, stock liner, no bts. yeah, the idea of cutting my $500 boots freaks me the $@#% out

-yeah, when i first got the boots, they were a tight, very snug fit, but now the toes are pretty packed out, and my heel even lifts inside the lining on toeside sometimes. perhaps the liners suck, but i'm confident that the shells are the right size, as i bought the boots new from elite feet with a fitting appointment and all. i even pass the two-finger test (well, i can't actually fit my hand in there, but from eyeballing it, it looks like a pass)

-i've played with my stance so much for the first several days on my board until i got it to where it is now, where i'm having the least problems. can't imagine too much further improvement from here given how much it's already improved, comfort-wise, result-wise on my trenches made (perceived or real), etc.

-i'm 5'4'', 120 lbs. skinny asian guy.

The rear boot cuff is not set to the correct forward lean position.

-not sure what you mean by that one. can you rephrase/elaborate? i do ride in the ride mode, adjusting the stiffness spring whenever the need arises (usually have to slacken the stiffness when it gets very cold and makes my feet go numb). perhaps i've missed the mark here..

-no thank you to shaving legs :)

thanks guys for the replies. other than neoprene and booster strap, everything else seems like a pricey fix and i'd have to stick it out for a while. anyway, these answers are hopefully enough to make way for some followup responses.

[Dave ESPI]

Thankyou Skully for "getting it".

Man, its almost too easy to mess with people sometimes...... SOrry to those who took my "shaving" comment as gospel/law/opinionated advice ;)

Not everyone has to be so serious all the time. Its supposed to be a place for information, comrodery and fun on the BOL forum!

WUN,

I agree with what Jose said as he expanded upon what I was pointing to about stance and boot/ body alignment. It realy does come down to boot fit, and howmuch movement you have in them. In rough conditions my Head boots bang me up good if Im too tight in them, or if the powerstrap is not adjusted to match my need for the slope. I ask what socks you wear because I found some were better than others and would not cause any issues against my skin (as there appears to be deep imprints in your skin from such). THere is an adjustment on the back of the boot that allows you to move the upper part of the boot forward and angle it off of the ankle adjustment hinge to give a more noticeable forward lean to the boot when looking at it from the side. (consult owners manual for how to adjust)

EDIT: You could always fill your boots with vaseline like that Senator did in the movie with Demi Moore (striptease).... but I won't hold my breath on that notion working out so well...... :rolleyes:

[Wun]

whoops, skipped over that one. i'm using wigwams.

[OhD]

An important aspect of getting rid of any rubbing is to get the pivot axis of your ankle aligned with the pivot axis of the boot, so your leg and the boot cuff move in unison. If the pivot axes don't match pretty well, the shin will move relative to the cuff. You can visualize this by holding your palms together and bending the fingers back and forth at the base joint of the fingers, keeping the fingers straight. the right fingers rub against the left fingers becaust their pivot points are offset, but the fingers on either hand don't rub against the adjacent fingers on the same hand because they pivot on about the same axis.

You can adjust your ankle position with heel padding and lifts or wedges under the footbed or between the footbed and liner. It's hard to measure - it might be most effective to buy some 1/8" adhesive-backed foam rubber (McMaster-Carr is probably cheaper than your boot shop, unless they give it away), cut a few pieces to match the footbed outline and try adding layers until the rubbing seems to be minimized. If you can't afford to lose volume in the forefoot, build up a stepped wedge or buy heel wedges. When you get it right, peel off the backing paper and stick the foam down.

This, and the BTS adapted to my Heads, made a huge difference for me. The BTS is well worth the modest cost and effort. Buy stainless clevis pins from a hardware store to pin it into the boot shell after you've forced out the stock ones and cleaned out the holes.

BTW - I find that shaving my shins helps a lot even with minimal rubbing. The hair pulling is easily-avoided pain and eliminating it can help you focus on and fix other sources. Pain tends to cause you to flinch and compensate in ways that don't neccessarily improve your riding. Plus, shaving gives you something else to talk about with your girlfriend.

Good luck.

[queequeg]

-completely stock setup. no surgery done, no cutting done, stock liner, no bts. yeah, the idea of cutting my $500 boots freaks me the $@#% out

-i'm 5'4'', 120 lbs. skinny asian guy.

Prolly not what you want to hear but: chances are very good that these (unmodified) boots are limiting your ability to position yourself correctly and holding back your progress if you are a smaller build ... A softer boot or modification (scary though it may be) will more likely than not be helpful.

-not sure what you mean by that one. can you rephrase/elaborate?

See the attached photo: it should not be a struggle to get into the position pictured, with your rear knee pointing forward. You should not have to work hard to get there, and you should be able to move down and up from there without difficulty. You should not feel a lot of pressure on your shin in this position, the boot should be supportive, but it should not get in your way.

[Dave ESPI]

WUN, the Wigwams tend to stop just shy of the top of the boot liner and tongue unless you have the "canadiens" style which are a tad longer. I love my Wigs for softboots however :)

I have some BURTON socks that are the only sock I wear when I want to really go out and ripchitup on my carver HB setup. I do not know the particular style, but the space over where your tarsels and ankle bones meet is a thinner area and does not "bunch up" the sock in the tongue 90 degree transition area/ they are also taller to just below my knee.

You have thinner calfe muscles also I would assume (as do I) and this gives your leg more room to slide around inside the liner. All kidding aside, you really could try shaving your legs from the knee down. I tend to tear out hairs and it definately is a source of pain even when just tugging on the folicles over the length of a day; its enough to make my skin feel like its on fire. Lubriderm lotion or aloe at night helps heal that area of roughly exfoliated (chaffed) skin also.

[zoltan]

I'm quite skinny myself, and been in the exact same position as you. For all the talk of positioning your foot, and adjusting the angles, etc., etc., the root problem is your leg doesn't have enough volume. To fix the root issue, you need to fill up that extra volume with something. A sock is too soft to work.

[queequeg]

A sock is too soft to work.

Yes. Thick socks will definitely not help. I ride with the thinnest socks I can possibly find. My legs are hairy as hell ... shaving will not help.

[Wun]

yeah, it's definitely a push to (try to) get into the same position as the rider in the photo. i assume the bts + cutting wings will fix that aspect.

my wigwam socks go all the way up to the bottom of my kneecaps, and footsize-wise, they're the right size too.

i do have a couple wedges my bootfitter gave me, i'll mess around with those as well when i'm on the slopes again. hell, i may get lucky and it might align the axes and prevent rubbing altogether. not counting on it though.

shaving legs, maybe i'll do that if i get desperate. not looking for that extra trouble =P

[queequeg]

yeah, it's definitely a push to (try to) get into the same position as the rider in the photo. i assume the bts + cutting wings will fix that aspect.

Yes. Sounds like those boots are holding you back (as they are).

[roman]

from my personal experience, best against shinbang are the boosters and the shintronics. this two things worked wonders for me. i recommend to try, it's also a cheap upgrade in materials.

cheers

[Cuban Carving Gooding]

Are you riding hard pack?

Do you have the same problem in hero snow?

I have had shin bang when my body is in the wrong position when riding hard pack snow. I make sure the boots are snug and get my body right.

[Wun]

anyway, right now, two things are coming to mind.

with bts and cut wings to have some give, i'm naturally thinking "what happens to my response? is it noticeably diminished?" i do like the fact that everything's stiff, just perhaps it'd be nice if i can get into the neutral position more easily

in the mean time, what if i swap out my front 3* disk for my extra 6* in order to make crouching down easier, resulting in double 6*? kind of seems unheard of. does it sound like a possible improvement (even if little)? maybe also help to go near max lift on rear and near min lift on front with the boots, though there's already a pretty big difference.

um, if the info is relevant, my current setup would be...

-stance width (i'm measuring center of center disk to center of center disk, not sure how else to measure it) is 19''.

-not sure how to quantify the disk angles, they're both at 70 degrees such that i have inward lift and inward cant on both feet.

-55-55 boot angles

@Cuban: i don't see a direct relation to what i'm riding, but of course if i'm going through soft snow or just cruising while standing up straight, there is no stress. just when i'm in an alpine position and turning and about, even in hero, the rubbing will still happen. i don't see how the boots can possibly be safely secured any tighter without replacing stuff; my feet are already sometimes cut off of circulation when i'm at the bottom of the hill, not moving, and not yet on the lift chair.