Carving with ski hard boots?

[David Choi]

What's the difference between hardboots for snowboard carving and the hardboots for skiing?

Are there any ski boots that would work for snowboard carving?

[tex1230]

Snowboard boots are generally more flexible front - to - back and have a shorter sole length and adjustable forward lean.

People have been carving in ski boots for years, and many here still do, but ski boots will be much less forgiving and generally need to be modified a bit to work correctly.

Dalbello Krypton, Full Tilt, and old Raichle Flexons are probably the most common ski boots you will see used by carvers.

[Steve Prokopiw]

Ski boots and snowboard hardshells.The Raichle Freezone skiboots I use are more rigid than the Raichle 324 snowboard boots I also use.The Freezones(with BTS) are great for their responsiveness, but like Tex wrote they are less forgiving.The 324s (without BTS)are great for teaching and for ground tricks that the Freezones are a bit too rigid for.

I am actually 'modding' some old Flexon skiboots to see of I can get the best of both worlds.The Freezone with BTS is as close as I've come to the goals I have for adaptability and performance.Cheap too,if you can find them.

[patmoore]

As a dual event racer it would be nice to wear a single pair of boots for both but I'd be doing myself a disservice. The Krypton is a great boot (we sell 'em) but they can't compare to my Lange World Cup 120 ski race boots. We also sell Full Tilt but are almost out for the season.

I've made a few runs on my Volkl GS board wearing those Langes but they're so stiff I've had to leave the top two buckles completely undone.

If I weren't racing I think the Krypton would be a great way to hop back and forth between skis and boards.

[match2002]

Has anyone tried skiing with UPZ boots with ski&snowboard sole-adapter?

[bjvircks]

I've been skiing with UPZ RSV boots with the DIN adapters for a couple years now. I like them as an alpine boot but not entirely pleased with them as a "performance" ski boot. However, for just cruising around they are good enough for my current level of skiing. If I didn't hold out hope for making a DIN heel adapter with integral INTEC mechanism... I'd probably get a pair of Kryptons. I have been using intecs on and off lately on my UPZ boots and really appreciate the ease of use. Just try to put an intec heel on any ski boot! As a side note... I find that the DIN heel adapter serves as a nice guide for the heel bale when I'm using standard plate bindings.

[bjvircks]

As a follow-up to my above comments... It would be great to have a mechanism like the UPZ springs or Bomber's BTS which could be 'locked', providing a stiff cuff so that when skiing a person could lock it for a stiff cuff and then unlock when riding to allow flex.

This sounds like a simple enough mechanism to design and incorporate... just throw enough money at it!

[tex1230]

Has anyone tried skiing with UPZ boots with ski&snowboard sole-adapter?

for me they were way too soft for skiing anything more difficult than beginner runs. I love them for carving though

[bjvircks]

way too soft for skiing anything more difficult than beginner runs

Yep... just what I need:rolleyes: Seriously, when I was a hard charger I liked skiing the stiffer boots. But now that I've over 50 I've got shorter, softer, lighter skis. I no longer want to ask that kind of challenge from my body.

[Michelle]

What's the difference between hardboots for snowboard carving and the hardboots for skiing?

Are there any ski boots that would work for snowboard carving?

Hi David

As these guys are right, seems we have lost a bit of focus to the argument. I have lots of people come into my office that say they trying to ride their hard boot snowboard with their ski boots, and they hated it. Which is why they are in my office, to get boots that are better suited to the situation.

Can you cut an apple with a butter knife? Yes. Does it work well. No.

As I do have some customers that ride ski boots on their boards, it's rare. Check out our classified section for something used that won't cost you a lot and will make you much happier on the slopes :)

[BlueB]

Ah, David, Michelle is back in the office!

Just email her, order the buckle that you need to fix your boots (I can help you with that) and be done with it. I can land you some ski boots to ride in the mean time. You might even fit in one of the smaller pairs of hard boots that I've got...

[leeho730]

I agree with Michelle. I started carving with ski boots and I immediately hated it. Now, with proper hardboots with BTS... I'm in love with it :)

[Keyser Soze]

I've been wondering about this for a while actually. Sometimes when I'm in Thrift shops, I see older Tecnica boots, and it reminds me of what can be found at the Carver's Almanac: http://www.alpinecarving.com/boots.html#ski

I've always considered picking up a pair of the newer ski boots at these thrift shops for the $5-10 they're being sold for (provided I can flex them forwards a bit) and giving them a run out, but I've hesitated because of the warnings I read about getting knocked about. Are these valid concerns for people who are reasonably experienced carvers, but not race caliber? Or is this mainly just a serious issue for people that are first making the transition to plates?

Modifications to boots have been mentioned in this thread:

http://www.bomberonline.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=22984

well, the boots could be softened. I've dremmeled and hot knifed more than one set of ski boots.

i've been training on them all week. so far we've ground the plastic "footbeds" under the liner, blown out the toe box, custom footbeds, instep inserts, drilled out the buckles to enlarge them, taken out the shim for forward flex and stiffness, and molded the liners.

Bob (or anyone else who has performed such operations, for better or for worse), do you have any examples or pics of where you've hot knifed ski boots to help with flex issues? Scott at the Carver's Almanac mentioned cutting strategic places, but I'm curious as to what those spots would be? I don't think it's been covered in a thread before.

[tenorman]

I've been wondering about this for a while actually. Sometimes when I'm in Thrift shops, I see older Tecnica boots, and it reminds me of what can be found at the Carver's Almanac: http://www.alpinecarving.com/boots.html#ski

I've always considered picking up a pair of the newer ski boots at these thrift shops for the $5-10 they're being sold for (provided I can flex them forwards a bit) and giving them a run out, but I've hesitated because of the warnings I read about getting knocked about. Are these valid concerns for people who are reasonably experienced carvers, but not race caliber? Or is this mainly just a serious issue for people that are first making the transition to plates?

Modifications to boots have been mentioned in this thread:

http://www.bomberonline.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=22984

Bob (or anyone else who has performed such operations, for better or for worse), do you have any examples or pics of where you've hot knifed ski boots to help with flex issues? Scott at the Carver's Almanac mentioned cutting strategic places, but I'm curious as to what those spots would be? I don't think it's been covered in a thread before.

<link rel="File-List" href="file:///C:%5CDOCUME%7E1%5Cloyal%5CLOCALS%7E1%5CTemp%5Cmsohtml1%5C01%5Cclip_filelist.xml"><!--[if gte mso 9]><xml> <w:WordDocument> <w:View>Normal</w:View> <w:Zoom>0</w:Zoom> <w:Compatibility> <w:BreakWrappedTables/> <w:SnapToGridInCell/> <w:WrapTextWithPunct/> <w:UseAsianBreakRules/> </w:Compatibility> <w:BrowserLevel>MicrosoftInternetExplorer4</w:BrowserLevel> </w:WordDocument> </xml><![endif]--><style> <!-- /* Style Definitions */ p.MsoNormal, li.MsoNormal, div.MsoNormal {mso-style-parent:""; margin:0cm; margin-bottom:.0001pt; mso-pagination:widow-orphan; font-size:12.0pt; font-family:"Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family:"Times New Roman";} @page Section1 {size:612.0pt 792.0pt; margin:72.0pt 90.0pt 72.0pt 90.0pt; mso-header-margin:36.0pt; mso-footer-margin:36.0pt; mso-paper-source:0;} div.Section1 {page:Section1;} --> </style><!--[if gte mso 10]> <style> /* Style Definitions */ table.MsoNormalTable {mso-style-name:"Table Normal"; mso-tstyle-rowband-size:0; mso-tstyle-colband-size:0; mso-style-noshow:yes; mso-style-parent:""; mso-padding-alt:0cm 5.4pt 0cm 5.4pt; mso-para-margin:0cm; mso-para-margin-bottom:.0001pt; mso-pagination:widow-orphan; font-size:10.0pt; font-family:"Times New Roman";} </style> <![endif]--><!--[if gte mso 9]><xml> <o:shapedefaults v:ext="edit" spidmax="1026"/> </xml><![endif]--><!--[if gte mso 9]><xml> <o:shapelayout v:ext="edit"> <o:idmap v:ext="edit" data="1"/> </o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]-->

the biggest problem with ski boots is the lack of forward lean. people on bomberonline are always talking about using a shim to increase forward lean but i have yet to see a photo. here are 3 photos courtesy of RON LEMASTER from his book ULTIMATE SKIING showing 3 different ways to increase forward lean. his first photo shows JULIA MANCUSO’s 2007 boot with a shimmed cuff (white arrows) to increase her forward lean. his second and third photo shows BODE MILLER’s 2002 boots with a pad underneath the heel (blue arrows) to increase his forward lean—also note that the red coloured “highback” extension (yellow arrows) to allow more leverage on the tail of the skis also increases the forward lean.

to minimize the amount of hot knifing try to choose flexier ski boots. personally i have only snowboarded with regular flexons but not the stiffer flexon comps but a lot of bomberonline members swear by the comps.

i remember KENT SMITH posting on bomberonline about 10 years ago that he preferred snowboard racing in ski boots. in addition to his flexon comps he also used TECNICAS (both the TNS and the TNT AVS) if he required more stiffness. i think he also mentioned using his raichle naganos with a modified TECNICA liner so he wasn’t a total SKI BOOT hardliner.

i also remember on that same 10 year old post that bomberonline member SPIN was able to use his SALOMON EVOLUTIONs but then another bomberonline member PAT DONNELLY found his SALOMON EVOLUTIONs were too stiff—i assume that SPIN was probably heavier than PAT.

bomberonline member BEN posted 10 years ago that at the time MARK FAWCETT used TECNICA EXPLOSTION 8’s with a softer orange upper from a junior boot. i think he might have mentioned other modifications but i can’t remember them.

[murphy12]

I ski in Kryptons, but they're too unforgiving as SB boots, even with the softer tongues. I'll stick with the Suzukas for carving.

[JakeW.]

It's all about what works for you and your individual style. I've been riding in ski boots for 10+ years, and I like them. I have never tried snowboard hardboots, only tried them on. I find them to be too soft for my taste. I currently use Rossignol Power 9.1 boots (unmodified) and I LOVE them!

[BlueB]

The ultimate ski boot for carving tread is here:

http://www.bomberonline.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=24737

The best universal boot, IMHO, is Dalbello Carvex/CRX/Reflex/Impulse. Mods are described in the tread above. Carvex and CRX work with BTS.

Forward lean should be the last of the concerns with the snowboard bindings. It is easilly compensated with the binding heel lift. The Dalbellos have internal ramping control. I keep it at the minimum, but use 6deg heel lift at the rear TD2.

[patmoore]

I may grab a pair of Krypton Pros with the ID liner next season.

At a recent race I tried to save time switching from board to skis by using my Lange World Cup 120s on my board. Despite leaving the top two buckles totally undone and the bottom two loose I still had a very difficult time turning the board. I had incurred a partial tear of the ACL of the left knee six days earlier and heelside turns hurt a LOT with this setup.

The next day I switched to my Head Stratos Pros. Much easier to turn! And the pain went away.

[ruwi]

The ultimate ski boot for carving tread is here:

http://www.bomberonline.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=24737

The best universal boot, IMHO, is Dalbello Carvex/CRX/Reflex/Impulse. Mods are described in the tread above. Carvex and CRX work with BTS.

Forward lean should be the last of the concerns with the snowboard bindings. It is easilly compensated with the binding heel lift. The Dalbellos have internal ramping control. I keep it at the minimum, but use 6deg heel lift at the rear TD2.

For the first time this season I used the CRX and I was surprised that it is a good alternate boots for alpine board and at the same time an easy switch to skis. I have used it with my F2 Silberpfeil with the TD2 (6 deg lift on the rear) in carve mode and very happy with my riding. It has lots of adjustments as BlueB mentioned to fit many types of riders to meet their required FWD Lean, Flex, ramp,cuff,lateral that I still have to play around. This weekend I used it with my Dynastar 163 in powder condition with some moguls in walk mode and again it surprised me how comfortable it was. I have it currently fitted with an Intuition liner, size 25 MP for very cheap from ebay that no one bid but me (thanks to BlueB again for alerting me on this). Here is the link for all those features and adjustment. Depending on your model, it comes with either Hex Screw or thumbscrew on the FWD lean adjustment. Be patient, everytime you are surfing the net, search for Dalbello CRX, Carvex, they routinely show up until you get the right size for you.

http://www.harbskisystems.com/archives/bootlink.htm

Ruwi

[bobdea]

Bob (or anyone else who has performed such operations, for better or for worse), do you have any examples or pics of where you've hot knifed ski boots to help with flex issues? Scott at the Carver's Almanac mentioned cutting strategic places, but I'm curious as to what those spots would be? I don't think it's been covered in a thread before.

I put slits in the high parts of the flexon tongues. you can also drill holes for the same effect and it's easier but I did not know that until years after doing mine. makes your boots leak like a bastard among other things.

on the tnt's it was a bit more involved and I pretty much destroyed the boots doing it. it was similar to the mods the EC guys do on stratos pros but I used a dremel for the most part. because I happened to have one.

I also made it so there was a bit of free flex on the side too.

really though, not worth your time, UPZs are pretty good to begin with, so are deeluxe and head.

[Alaskan Rover]

Seems to me that when something comes out that is ostensibly supposed to do TWO different things well, one often ends up with gear that is destined to do NEITHER well. Dunno...maybe that's just me.

Gravity IS Life.

[Donek]

It doesn't look like the most important issue has been addressed here. Ski boots are more likely to break your board than snowboard boots.

Ski boots are designed to transfer pressure to a skis edge. They do not have nearly the lateral flex that a snowboard boot has. If you're going to attempt the use of ski boots, it should be done in the Side Winder or something similar. You'll find that most of the racers using ski boots are using this binding (or something else that flexes a lot) and a plate system. Without these additions, the metal boards they are riding wouldn't last more than a couple runs.

Don't use ski boots if you like your board.... On second thought, use them as much as you like. I'd love to sell you that many boards.

[JakeW.]

I'm sure the sidewinder is a great binding for someone who likes lateral flex. Personally, I ride stiff ski boots because I don't like lateral flex, and I ride with TD1 bindings for the same reason. If I break a board, at least I break it with a setup I like. I'll sacrifice longevity for ride quality any day!

[ShortcutToMoncton]

Don't use them with TD1/2s. Probably not 3s either. Same for Cateks, but I don't like Catek bindings anyway. Gonna be too stiff.

Haven't tried the Sidewinder, but I use F2s (and anyone else I've seen with ski boots have been on F2s or Burtons as well) without a plate and the Krypton Pros were a good fit on my Coiler VSR.

I've never been happy with the Deeluxe fit, and I've heard terrible things about the UPZ liners. Liners seem to be the deal-breaker in general, and I'm not about to spend $500+ just to get a good custom-fitter liner; that's just criminal. I enjoy the Dalbello Gold liner so far.

greg

[BlueB]

Just to make clear, I never sugested the Dalbellos as the perfect boot for every discipline, especially not for ski racing. Again, these are probably the best boots that can be used as a cross-over and probably the most adjustable ones. The amount of plastic you cut away inside is directly proportional to the dependabillity on BTS. I've got mine to the point where they are TOO SOFT for skiing and TOO SOFT for hard charging on the alpine race board, unless seriously preloaded on BTS (blue, 180+ lbs rider).

Then, I hate lateral flex in the boot - I want that to come from the binding. In this regard, ski boot is perfect. I hated TD2s in the beginning, but as soon as I started riding with suspension kit, it became nice. Now I use TD3 elastomer. They work well with Snowpros and Blax/Proflex/F2 RS.

I'm sure I'd love Sidewinder for freeriding.

I've never broken a board, but I did brake 2 pairs of bindings (not TD). I rode (a lot)TD2+suspension, without any damage, on notorious metal-top boards, including Prior, Kessler and Virus.

+1 on sucky fit of Raichle/Deelux.