scrapster Posted December 14, 2009 Report Share Posted December 14, 2009 Okay, I need some moral support. I had probably the second worst day I've ever had riding today. I'm finding out that my body has a very small "sweet spot" in terms of the carving equipment and set-up that I can comfortably ride. One small tweak--be it stance angles, boot stiffness, board width--and it can cause me a world of hurt (usually in some lower extremity, like feet, knees, or quads.) Has anyone else had such a hard time figuring out what works for them? I'd say about 50% of my days riding are good to great, and the other half are frustrating to miserable. I'm beginning to wonder if my body is really made for this. Just a quick update. I finally bought real snowboarding hardboots and tried them today. I've been riding my alpine touring ski boots for the last year and a half. The AT's are super comfy, but hard to flex properly for carving--I'm pretty light weight. I bought some Deeluxe 225's pimped up with stiffer togues, slapped on a BTS, added footbeds and had some stiff Intuitions power wraps molded for me. Given my weight, they're about where I think snowboard HB's SHOULD feel like--some resistance, but nice, even flex. And yes, they're the right size. But oh man. My test sucked!!! On my 21cm waist board with really low angles (45/40), I started to ache along the blade of the front foot. I could feel my feet trying to grip the footbeds for support. On my slightly narrower 20 cm board (55/45), my feet felt better, but my front leg quads started to burn so much by my last run that they spasmed to the point that I almost had to ask for a skidoo ride down the hill. When I leaned to toeside, it was as if there was nothing there to support me. Arrgh! I think its back to my ski boots, or the 5 position lean adjuster in the Deeluxes. It just shouldn't be this hard! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hotbeans Posted December 14, 2009 Report Share Posted December 14, 2009 Bola at Allboard Sports gave me some great advice that worked for me in regards to foot pain: Where ever it hurts, the binding needs lowered. IE: if the front "blade" (I'm assuming you mean outside of your foot) aches, lower that side of the binding by dropping the cant down along the length. I've got Catek's and they allow me to adjust to where I need it. Incidently (or not..), I know my bindings are at the wrong angles/cant if I feel my feet "trying to grip" the footbed. I'm just guessing here, but you need more foot support which is being messed up by incorrect canting. Your foot is trying to reposition itself for the support it's needing... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scrapster Posted December 14, 2009 Author Report Share Posted December 14, 2009 Good advice. Thanks! I have 3 degree inward canting on my front binding right now. Just got some used Cateks and haven't had time to mount them yet. I think I'll set the front foot flat and see how that feels. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Allee Posted December 14, 2009 Report Share Posted December 14, 2009 Stick with it. The change to proper hardboots will screw you up bigtime. I know that when I made the switch from my ski boots, I fell all over the hill for the first two days - it was like going back to being a learner all over again. Snowboard HB's flex in completely different places, and the forward lean angles are completely different. You might try higher angles on the 21cm board. I run 55/45 on mine, and I get exactly the same foot and quad pain when I try to run lower angles. I'm pretty sure it's because I'm trying to steer with the front foot, but with the angles low, I'm just pushing across the board rather than down the length, and I'm straining the outside of my front foot and quad to get the turn going. ( I hope that makes sense ...) Hope your next day is better. Stick with it - I have days when I'm wondering what the hell I'm doing out there as well, so I can sympathise. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scrapster Posted December 14, 2009 Author Report Share Posted December 14, 2009 Thanks for the support Allee!!! I did have higher angles on the 21 cm at first (around what you suggested), but I ended up with a decent amount of underhang on the front foot. I only have 24 mondo feet. That, combined with the softer-flexing boot, and I had a bear of a time making the board come around to toeside. When I lowered the angles so they were over the edges, that transition became noticeably easier. This was my first time on a substantially bigger board too--175cm, no taper,and a smallish 10.5 scr. So that and new boots were a big change. Still, I also tried the new boots on an old, trustworthy board, and also had problems...though they were of a different nature. Its funny, I once rode my AT boots in walk mode by mistake for a few runs and hated it. Once I locked them in, they felt much better. That's why I'm thinking I just may like stiffer boots. But I'll give these another shot! PS- I like your analogy of trying to steer the board with the front foot. I think that's where some of my trouble comes from too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlueB Posted December 14, 2009 Report Share Posted December 14, 2009 I feel your pain, brother! I still can't get myself to love propper snowboard boots... Kinda nice for lower angles and fooling around, but I miss the support and power I get out my Dalbellos. Play with the BTS a bit, preload makes quite a bit of difference! As for AT boots, I picked a pair of Lowas, recently. Just had them on around the house and they feel fairly soft (in locked mode). They fit kinda narrow, not ideal for my foot shape. Maybe I still need to ride them for a day or 2, just to satisfy the curiosity... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NateW Posted December 14, 2009 Report Share Posted December 14, 2009 On my slightly narrower 20 cm board (55/45), my feet felt better, but my front leg quads started to burn so much by my last run... I fixed a front-quad-burn problem by moving my bindings forward. I was leaning too much on my front leg because I had to in order to make the board work properly. Moving the bindings forward means I can have my weight in the right place and have a comfortable stance with equal weight on each leg. Conventional wisdom says to center your stance in or two aft of the center of the effective edge, and most boards' inserts are laid out with that idea in mind. I've decided that's crap - and it's probably why instructors are always telling students to lean forward, more weight forward, more weight on your front foot, lean forward, blah blah blah. It's good advice, but only because bindings are generally in the wrong places. :) That said, I do keep one of my boards set up with a rear-ish stance, because it works a lot better in deep snow. It might be a little bitter for off-piste steeps too (skidded turns, moguls) but I'm not yet convinced either way. But for just about everything, especially carving on groomers, centered works way better for me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scrapster Posted December 14, 2009 Author Report Share Posted December 14, 2009 I feel your pain, brother! I still can't get myself to love propper snowboard boots... Kinda nice for lower angles and fooling around, but I miss the support and power I get out my Dalbellos. Play with the BTS a bit, preload makes quite a bit of difference! As for AT boots, I picked a pair of Lowas, recently. Just had them on around the house and they feel fairly soft (in locked mode). They fit kinda narrow, not ideal for my foot shape. Maybe I still need to ride them for a day or 2, just to satisfy the curiosity... Hey Boris, I'm riding Lowa Strukturas. Nice boot! Then again, a lot depends on rider weight. I have the hinged tongues in and they're plenty stiff for me at 145-150 lbs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shawndoggy Posted December 14, 2009 Report Share Posted December 14, 2009 I'm by no means a binding setup expert, but I can definitely relate to binding changes making a big difference. Last season I started out with everything moved up on the inserts towards the nose because I had had problems with turn initiation on my maiden season the year before. I was also running 3 and 3 inward cants (TD1). Once I moved to the TD2s, centered on the board with no inward cant (PURE lift on heel and toe), it was a revelation. Any BOL'ers on your hill you can ride with? Sometimes that makes a huge difference too, rather than just stabbing in the dark at binding changes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
queequeg Posted December 14, 2009 Report Share Posted December 14, 2009 If your quads are burning on your leading leg, it (could) mean you need either some toe lift or that you need to set the BTS on that boot to set the cuff more upright. If your knee on your leading foot is hanging out in front of your ankle while you are riding, that requires your front quads to work very hard to stabilize your body. That will cause you to burn in the leading quad very fast, and tire you out fast. Stick with it. Any change in your boots is going to require some getting used to, switching from one pair of boots to another can be extremely painful, even if it is the right decision. I just recently switched from Head Stratos Pros, to UPZ RC-10's. I can tell the UPZ are absolutely the right boot for me, but I still have to work out some fit issues with my feet and there is a lot of pain as a consequence. This will work out, and I will be happier in the UPZ than I ever could have dreamed of in the Heads, despite the pain I am dealing with in the meantime. Keep your chin up, and find your fun. Somedays I'm a hero. Somedays I'm a zero - but I always have fun. The more zero days you ride and work through - the more hero day's you'll have. It's a labor of love. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scrapster Posted December 14, 2009 Author Report Share Posted December 14, 2009 Words of wisdom, well said! One thing seems unanimous, I'm going to lose the binding cant next time and try some toe lift. In retrospect, I do think my front knee was flexing out over my ankle. YYZCanuck also made a great point about possibly needing boots with more forward-aft stiffness if you're running really low angles--like I am on my wide-waisted board. I guess I could also try higher angles and having underhang on that board again while keeping the softer boot set up, but the turn initiation seemed much slower/harder. I'd have to work on my angulation quite a bit. There was one big positive for me yesterday. Riding a 175 for the first time wasn't the one-way rocket to hell that I feared it would be. Other than having a little trouble with toeside turn initiations (particularly getting it up on edge), it was quite manageable and stable. Not bad, not bad at all... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D.T. Posted December 14, 2009 Report Share Posted December 14, 2009 On my 21cm waist board with really low angles (45/40), I started to ache along the blade of the front foot. I could feel my feet trying to grip the footbeds for support. On my slightly narrower 20 cm board (55/45), my feet felt better, but my front leg quads started to burn so much by my last run that they spasmed to the point that I almost had to ask for a skidoo ride down the hill. I have 3 degree inward canting on my front binding right now. Just got some used Cateks and haven't had time to mount them yet. I think I'll set the front foot flat and see how that feels. lets see, the pain is in the blade of your forward foot; your are riding relatively low angles; you are riding with 3° inward cant on the front foot; your forward quad burns while you ride. That is exactly what I would expect with that list of conditions... Low binding angles will put more weight on the blade of your front foot if your are moving your hips toward the nose of the board. 3° inward cant will raise the outside of your forward foot, effectively putting more weight on the blade of your forward foot. Your forward quad burns because your weight is shifted forward, which puts more weight on the blade of your forward foot... I think you get the idea. :) Here is your web diagnosis; IMO, here is how I would proceed: only change one variable at a time from here on out, that way you can determine if that variable helps or hinders the issues you are having 3° inward cant is huge!!! Everyone is different and needs different amounts of cant and lift, but unless when you stand upright your knees touch while your feet are 2' apart, I would recommend backing off the inward cant. Ride with more lift than cant. 45°/40° angles are too low for hardboots, I would recommend increasing the angles on that board. Especially since lower angles feel better for you on your narrower board. the burn in your forward quad is consistent with the majority of your weight being on that leg. Try to ride more neutral with your weight balanced evenly on each leg. As stated by someone earlier, you may be shifting your weight forward because that is how the board wants you to ride it. If that is the case, move the bindings forward on the board and ride with your weight evenly balanced. Spend sometime dialing in your settings and you will be very happy. There are lots of changes that you can make, if you wait until you get on the hill to make them, it will take forever. Make one change at home, then carpet surf to see if the change was effective. Make another change, test that change, etc... Good luck :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
b0ardski Posted December 14, 2009 Report Share Posted December 14, 2009 3° inward cant is huge!!! Everyone is different and needs different amounts of cant and lift, but unless when you stand upright your knees touch while your feet are 2' apart, I would recommend backing off the inward cant. Ride with more lift than cant. 45°/40° angles are too low for hardboots, Mister knock kneed here, guess I better sell of my hardboots;) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Call me jack Posted December 15, 2009 Report Share Posted December 15, 2009 i used ski boots for awhile, when i first started alpine boarding, and lately i've actually been considering going back to them... but thats really not my point... when i went from my ski boots to my deeluxe track 700s i had to make some big adjustments to my bindings cant and lift, had i not done that i think it's possible that i too, could've been in a world of hurt. so yeah... try adjusting the can't and lift on your bindings Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pow4ever Posted December 15, 2009 Report Share Posted December 15, 2009 This is about 1 day on head hard boots. some red spot around shin which I expect. However wasn't expecting the black and blue... boot/binding/cant/stance? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
queequeg Posted December 15, 2009 Report Share Posted December 15, 2009 [ATTACH]19386[/ATTACH]This is about 1 day on head hard boots. some red spot around shin which I expect. However wasn't expecting the black and blue... boot/binding/cant/stance? David - are you using the stock liners? I seem to recall the stock liners have a floating tongue, with a fairly thick edge. Seems like the edge of the tongue pressing against the side of your shin could cause this kind of a bruise - particularly if your canting/lift sitation is off or the fit around your calf is very tight -- just a guess. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scrapster Posted December 15, 2009 Author Report Share Posted December 15, 2009 I fixed a front-quad-burn problem by moving my bindings forward. I was leaning too much on my front leg because I had to in order to make the board work properly. Moving the bindings forward means I can have my weight in the right place and have a comfortable stance with equal weight on each leg. I was thinking of your post when I re-mounted more adjustable bindings to my 175 last night. I admit, I was guilty of not measuring the center of the running length in relation to the inserts when I mounted the first set of bindings :rolleyes:. This time I did--holy setback Batman! About 2 inches worth. Hmm. Now, this wasn't the board where I experienced the quad burn. But it was the board I was having trouble with transitioning to toesides (sluggish, tail not wanting to pop up on edge, etc.) When I tried to center this time, the closest I can get is about 1 inch back while still keeping my desired stance width. Still, I think that's going to make a big difference. This board is a big piece of lumber for me. There's no need for me to be sitting on the tail and letting all that nose flop around in front! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scrapster Posted December 15, 2009 Author Report Share Posted December 15, 2009 Gotta love carpet carving. So, I slapped on my new SB boots and my AT boot several times this morning before work. After strapping in and riding the wall-to-wall for a while, I discovered two things: 1. My AT boots allow me to stand up much straighter when I want/need to. 2. For me at least, stiffness in that rear boot is really important. In my AT's I'm able to almost rest on that back shin, which relieves a heckuva lot of pressure on the front leg, and helps prevent my front knee from going too far out over my ankle. (I'm not sure if that's the best thing technique-wise, but its kept my body happy.) Tonight--time to make some adjustments to ths Deeluxes and see if I can get them to treat me right too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
queequeg Posted December 15, 2009 Report Share Posted December 15, 2009 1. My AT boots allow me to stand up much straighter when I want/need to. This may be old hat but: In my experience, boots/stance that feel natural standing upright and straight while on flat ground perform very poorly while actually carving, since carving technique favors a (somewhat) compact upper/lower body. Standing up straight while carving is one of the worst habits you can acquire ... I know because as soon as I start to get tired, I start standing straight up and then my carving goes to ****. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scrapster Posted December 15, 2009 Author Report Share Posted December 15, 2009 My guess is I'll have to find a happy medium somewhere. I'm not looking for cushy comfort, just a reasonable position where my legs can relax when appropriate (flatter runs, cat tracks, etc.), without having to sit down. On Sunday, it felt like I was stuck in tough Tai Chi pose for too long with no transition for relief--and this is at a time when my legs are in super shape. (Eight months of intensive physical therapy to treat a nagging knee injury will do that for you.) Luckily, my knees felt fine--but every muscle around them is still very sore. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zoltan Posted December 15, 2009 Report Share Posted December 15, 2009 The only advice I can give is the best binding/boot set up is the one which works for you. I ride best with both bindings completely flat. Go figure. It took me a while to figure it out too, because I kept trying setups people were suggesting on line. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pow4ever Posted December 16, 2009 Report Share Posted December 16, 2009 David - are you using the stock liners? I seem to recall the stock liners have a floating tongue, with a fairly thick edge. Seems like the edge of the tongue pressing against the side of your shin could cause this kind of a bruise - particularly if your canting/lift sitation is off or the fit around your calf is very tight -- just a guess. Thanks Buddy!!! That make sense. me and the Popeye calves make buckleing a PITA... scrapster Sorry for hijack your thread :) Just want to let you know; you are not alone. -- David Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scrapster Posted January 2, 2010 Author Report Share Posted January 2, 2010 Well, I took out the trusty slalom board with my Track 225's for another spin and had a much better time. (+1 for whoever suggested that I keep at it with the little board!) Anyway, for boot adjustments I 1) replaced the stiff, molded Intuition liners with the old, worn-in originals, 2) I ditched the BTS and locked the forward lean on my front foot at the three position and my back at two to help me crouch more. Bingo! Didn't even have to play with the canting. Had no foot pain (and I even forgot to put in my footbed inserts). And even more exciting, I actually made some progress with my technique. On a few runs, "feeding the dollar" was really workin'. Oh yeah. Thanks everybody! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave ESPI Posted January 2, 2010 Report Share Posted January 2, 2010 Always nice when after beating ourselves up, we take it to our own and make adjustments and then find out they worked ! Sometimes we get lucky Now ya just have to get out and shred shred shred ! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.