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training questions...


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Hey all,

does anyone know of any indoor training exercises to work specifically on form? Does anyone stretch regularly? If yes, how beneficial has it been?

I did a quick search through some threads, seems like most practice drills are to be done on the slope obviously.

On a related note, how would you all order the following types of training in terms of overall benefit TO CARVING (this is generally speaking, excludes rehabbing injuries, etc):

1. weight training (includes overall strength and muscular endurance)

2. cardio

3. stretching (or something similar to that)

4. outdoor "balance activities" (skating, surfing, wakeboarding, etc) I guess these would be the "core" sports

5. other outdoor activity (biking, inline skating, team sports,etc).

6. misc ( I guess this would include plyometrics, balance boards, knowlege/reading, etc)

thx,

Barry

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personally, although there is much overlap in many of theses...I would rank in this order...

1. Other outdoor activity (everyone needs an off season, and I it keep you from being so sport specific...look at Bode, Rahlves, and most other racers, in any discipline). In many ways, this also covers cardio (provided you aren't talking about Golf) and stregnth. (and one should always be stretching prior to and after these activities)

2. tie - Cardio and stregnth (and one should always be stretching prior to and after these activities)

3. Core sports (and one should always be stretching prior to and after these activities)

4. Stretching (and noew were talking like yoga or tai chi. something to truly increase both stregnth and flexibility

5. Misc. knolwlegde, Motion Analysis...plyo is stregnth and to a lesser degree stretch...balance boards more in with core IMHO) I also think this is most important only if you know what you're doing...ie I don't know enough about the golf swing to either analyze myself, or teach someone else. I still play a lot, and enjoy the game and have an 18 Hcp.

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Originally posted by ncermak

2. tie - Cardio and stregnth (and one should always be stretching prior to and after these activities)

There's a lot of people who would disagree with you on that. The standard static stretching that many people do before a run can actually increase chances of injury - the stretching causes small tears in the muscle, the running compounds the damage... It's not all cut and dried yet but there's mounting evidence that the only stretching you should be doing is after your run (or whatever).

Now for strength training, I just don't feel right about launching right into it so I run for a couple of minutes to warm up and then do some dynamic ROM stretches.

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Originally posted by Neil Gendzwill

There's a lot of people who would disagree with you on that. The standard static stretching that many people do before a run can actually increase chances of injury - the stretching causes small tears in the muscle, the running compounds the damage... It's not all cut and dried yet but there's mounting evidence that the only stretching you should be doing is after your run (or whatever).

Neil-

on the one hand, you are right.

on the other, you are wrong.

what I am getting at is proper and improper stretching. Proper stretching is done after a brief warm up - 5-10 min of light activity, just enough to get the blood flowing, and the muscles loosening up a little. then you can increase your activity. after your stretch. Improper would involve stretching out, and maxing the stretches without warm up, resulting in muscle damage.

I'll admit, I don't run, and don't read jogging or any running magazines, so there may be some thing happening that I don't know about. But in all of coaching, and education, and my experience as both an athlete and a trainer, I've never heard that stretching should only be done after running, not before.

-Noah

p.s. you're right on with your approach to stregnth training

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Originally posted by ncermak

what I am getting at is proper and improper stretching. Proper stretching is done after a brief warm up - 5-10 min of light activity, just enough to get the blood flowing, and the muscles loosening up a little. then you can increase your activity. after your stretch. Improper would involve stretching out, and maxing the stretches without warm up, resulting in muscle damage.

If you're going to stretch, that's the way to do it.

The thing about running and most aerobic activities is there isn't a lot of sudden movement which risks injury - the best way to warm up for the activity is to start into it at an easy pace and speed up as you warm up. Weight lifting OTOH (and my other sports, kendo and judo) have opportunities for injury. With those, it's definitely do something aerobic to break a light sweat, then stretch out.

I'll admit, I don't run, and don't read jogging or any running magazines, so there may be some thing happening that I don't know about. But in all of coaching, and education, and my experience as both an athlete and a trainer, I've never heard that stretching should only be done after running, not before.

My advice comes from a friend who's a fairly serious triathlete. He says about 90% of running injuries are caused by overstretching. I'd say that's stretching the point a little as many runners get non-stretching related injuries. Still... the only injuries I get from running have been soreness in the knees, and that's just an overreaching thing - my 43 year old knees need time to adapt to increased distances.

Other runners do run lightly for a few minutes, then stretch, then continue. I don't think it's necessary.

The post-activity stretch is what I need for running - if I don't, I can get some cramping, especially in my calves. Running tends to tighten up hams and calves.

p.s. you're right on with your approach to stregnth training

I've got good advice there - Keith Hobman, misc.fitness.weights resident guru, lives in my city and has helped me with my program and general approach.

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Don't flame me on this, and I have yet to find anything online about this, but ...

There was a study done a while back on military (Army? Marines?) basic training. The jist of the study claimed that given a fit athlete, stretching before/after a strenuous workout, ie-running, made no discernable difference to the athlete, as long as the athlete went through a brief warm-up and cooldown cycle.

That said, when I get out mountain/road cycling, I don't stretch at all, but do warmup/cooldown. I do the same before working out or hitting the bag, too. Occasionally I will stretch, but don't notice any difference in the way I feel during/after the excercise.

Before I hit the slopes, I do light stretching at the top of the first lift ride to loosen/warm up a bit, as I'm usually pretty cold early in the morning on a snowy piste.

By no means am I an expert, or professional athlete, the above is only my experience. :)

I did a google:

http://www.pponline.co.uk/encyc/0396.htm

http://www.sciencenewsforkids.org/articles/20040505/Feature1.asp

http://www.humankinetics.com/products/showexcerpt.cfm?isbn=0736041508&excerpt_id=3402

Note, the above do indicate light streching may not be a bad thing ...

I found an article (study on military basic training) I mentioned above:

http://www.sportsinjurybulletin.com/archive/1002-stretching-flexibility.htm

FWIW

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hey guys,

some intersting threads here. i was doing some brief reading on stretching, who woulda thought it was so darn involved,lol. all different types, etc. i must say i'm surprised with the weights coming in last. anyway, thx ffor the interesting info.

---

Barry

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Not sure I'd agree on weights being last... Kent is coming from the position of being a pretty serious endurance athlete. The development they're looking for is pretty much the opposite of what you use weights to train for. OTOH the sort of explosive strength that weights can develop is very useful for snowboarding. But when I think of weights, I don't think of bicep curls and that kind of crap. I think of compound exercises that build overall strength and coordination. Full-depth squats, squats to press, dumbbell snatches, turkish getups - these all build lower body and core strength like crazy. Situps and crunches don't do much in comparison.

For muscular endurance, look into hindu squats and pushups (basically fast bodyweight squats with heels up and dive-bomber pushups).

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neil-

I agree with you for the serious competitive athlete, however, for the weekend warrior, I think that being in overall good shape is far more important than focusing on explosive strength (and I spelled it right this time!).

I suppose this whay coaches look at long and short term goals and develop individualized trainng plans for each athlete based upon those goals.

Therefore, to keep the tie in to the original thread...

Barry

How I rank these depends upon your goals for the season and beyond....:D

-Noah

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Noah,

thx and I agree with the "weekend warriors" comment (esp. as overall weight training helps to reduce chances of injury), although the other posts were helpfull, too. Psycho puppet Neil, I'm not familiar with all the exercises you metioned, so I'll prolly do some googling on those.

---

Barry

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Yeah. Keith's first questions when I asked him for help were "what are your goals? what are you training for?". He's not interested in the slightest in hypertrophy. He's not even all that interested in absolute strength, unless it applies to the sport. The stuff I do is what he considers specific to the various sports I'm interested in. But because there's a lot of strength involved (judo, carving) the reps are geared towards strength (3 rep sets, wave progression).

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