20m SCR

[WinterGold]

For next year I wanted to retire my old Factory Primes (60, 73, 85). So I was looking into new raceboards. I discovered that the sidecut radius has changed dramatically in the last few years.

Production models from F2 and SG (for 2010) - the F2 Speedster WCE 183 has 22m scr!!! Also the SG Full Race 185 has 20,3m.

Unfortunately there were no testboards available this year.

When I wanted to order my boards for next season, a big discussion started about how much sense such boards make if you do not race. I always liked my 185 Factory (15,14m scr). So now my question - Are these boards useable for everyday riding and doing nice carving turns? What does a 20m scr mean? Can they only be used on empty, extra wide slopes? Are they made for real carving or initiating turns by drifting?

[Jack M]

I've never ridden a sidecut longer than 18.5m, but I can't imagine trying to freecarve a 20+ meter board, linking full C-shaped turns down the hill. At least not on the steeps I like to ride. I'd want to demo before buying. My go-to board is 14m and I love it.

The sidecut radius number is the radius (or approximate radius if the curve is not radial) of the curve cut into the side of the board. As you tilt the board up on edge, the board flexes and that radius decreases. At a 60 degree edge angle, the radius the board wants to carve is half its sidecut radius, or in this case 10m. The longer the board's radius, the faster you have to ride it, generally speaking. There is more info in the tech articles here.

[yyzcanuck]

Although the SCR is described as 22m on the WC version of the 183 Speedster RS, this refers to the 'effective' SCR, not a single radius. The sidecut is actually a blend of multiple (3?) radii with a decambered nose. Dare I say it...?? Similar to the Kessler KST shapes that have been the norm on the WC for several years.

With the nose radius being tighter than the middle and tail, no... you don't have to slide to initiate a turn. Infact, just the opposite. Bringing the hips forward and rolling the board up on edge engages the nose radius and begins the turn. You can maintain this by keeping your weight forward.

This shape is certainly different than what you're used to riding. You may find the HUGE amount of tail taper a bit un-nerving at first but it can be ridden for daily freecarving. Are they worth the extra $$$? That decision is yours I think.

If you're looking at F2 and feel the WC isn't what you want ($$$), they have the 'Equipe' version available with WCE shapes but reduced SCR in the middle section.

.

0910_F2_SpeedsterRS.pdf

0910_F2_SpeedsterRS_WC.pdf

[inkaholic]

I have the first gen SG (ugly pointy one) with and 18,5 scr. I don't race anymore and use it for most of my carving needs.

With the new designs, decambered noses and softer flexes, the race boards almost need the greater scr to avoid hooking your turn into the gate. That said, I was able to take the 18,5 and match turns with PCDenver on an 11,2 Donek FCI. These boards are capable of being tightened up when needed with rider input.

My SG takes more work to bring it across the hill, it is race bred and likes to release the turn down the hill for the next gate, but it is possible with the right input from the rider.

Hope this helps.

[WinterGold]

Thank you for your quick replies so far!

@yyzcanuck - I don´t understand what you mean by ´effective´ scr. And leaving the money aside, what would you choose for freecarving?

So can the numbers not be compared to the old ones? Do I have to ignore them?

[johnasmo]

I have a Coiler 188 with a 17+ sidecut radius (Shred's old "Violator 188", NOT a race board), and it turns pretty tight. Way tighter than the hardbooter.com race boards with similar sidecuts that I tried at SES. So the flex pattern also plays a significant role in how fun it will be to freecarve completed turns. I wouldn't let SCR be an issue, but I'd be cautious about buying a real "race" board without a chance to demo it -- been there, don't that, sold it. Factory Primes (I still have one) were winning races at one time, but now the technology that can be thrown at getting on the podium can make the boards good for little else. For example, demo a Prior WCR metal back to back with a Prior Hardbooter.com race board and you'll feel a big difference. The WCR metal is a great freeride board, by the way, or any of Bruce's boards, including the NSR -- they still let you complete freecarve turns instead of targeting the next gate even though they have "race" in their names.

[Mike T]

I'll agree there is fun to be had on the Kessler-like shapes. I've ridden a Kessler for a few runs, most of my time on these shapes is on my Coiler NSR 185. Its sidecut varies from 13.7 in front to 17 in back, and it's a piece of cake to ride, and comes around across the hill very easily on all but the flattest of slopes. I recently had the chance to ride a NSR 187 - 14 scr in front, 20 in back and that was a whole different animal. Really took some work to get across the hill and in fact had to stay on the front to keep it from running away on me.

The aforementioned NSR 185 does a very nice job of blending stability at speed with freecarve friendliness. I consider it very user friendly. After getting sucked in by the metal craze I found older boards 180 and higher felt more locked in than I wanted... the NSR 185 is nice in that it has what I consider to be a good balance between "comes around under me easily" and "changes edges easily without any feeling of being locked into the turn".

[Mike T]

My personal answer on "what would I choose for freecarving":

Depends on how fast you like to go! If you like speed, a toned-down version of the modern GS race boards - such as a Coiler NSR. If you prefer speed control - then a less racey modern freecarve design would be my choice - say the Schtubby, Classic, or Mini-Monster from Coiler, or WCR metal from Prior. I bought a used Coiler Mini-Monster 182 after OES and it has a less extreme blended sidecut, 14 to 15, and is amazing in the speed control department while still oferring stability at the speeds you'd expect from a 14 or 15 scr.

[pokkis]

I runn last weekend my thrusty NSR 182 :1luvu:and Tomahawk race model and Kessler KST. All 180+few cm.

All worked very nicely also for free carving, no problems, KST felt very close to my NSR, Tomahawk was built for bigger person and it was not as close than those 2.

Unfortunatly have not had to test latest SG's yet.

But i would say specially if you dont take too extreme race board, and/or have change to test them, they work very well as free carving board.

My NSR is my numero uno board now, you can run it as you like, EC,flegmatic, race with enormous edge hold and it does not kill your feet, for me it is superior board for Duracell-riding.

If you come to Finish Lappland for Easter you can test it and some other stuff too

[WinterGold]

I really appreciate your contributions so far. I have a vague idea where this is going. I bet that some of the mentioned boards are excellent snowboards. But Prior and Coiler and Donek are not that present in Austria. SG (and also F2) are relatively easy to get. Other customs (Kessler, Oxess, etc.) would be very expensive ...

My preferences ... I like snowboarding in all its different forms ... I use softboots and hardboots ... I like carving fast, big turns and also slice some tight slalom turns. I have quite a lot of experience on various boards, but not on new alpine boards (except my F2 163 WCE 07/08 scr - under 10m ...).

@pokkis - I love your invitation ... unfortunately this would be a long journey ...

[waypastfast]

All i can say is that its like cheating when riding one of the newer SG or Kessler sidecuts! I have tried my friends SG and its incredible! Compared to my F2 Speedster, its amazing how fun those boards actually are!

[BlueB]

I guess one has to read in between lines a bit...

Above you'll find a lot of "it could...", "with the right input...", "turn release", etc.

I've ridden the Kessler SL and I have Kessler GS, real WC stock. Sl is amazingly all-mountain capable, but it sounds that you are into bigger board. GS would be great on wide, empty, medium steep pitch. However, you really need to hammer on it to make it turn smaller then 20m scr average would suggest. It is NOT your day-to-day carving stick, It IS a race stock GS board, that's the bottom line. Nice to have for big days, but not as the only board.

I don't see why would you torture yourself with a pure race board while a lot of modern technology free-carve boards are available?

I'm not totaly sold on blended radii scr, either. While I love the abillity of my Virus to change the turn shape, the simplicity and predictabillity of uniform radius metal Prior are really confidence inspiring.

[yyzcanuck]

Thank you for your quick replies so far!

@yyzcanuck - I don´t understand what you mean by ´effective´ scr.

The manufacturer needs to provide some sort of comparative values for the consumer to evaluate the board. Perhaps 'effective' SCR isn't the proper term. In fact, it might be better described as tail SCR.

So can the numbers not be compared to the old ones? Do I have to ignore them?

I would say it's best not to compare the SCR numbers of the new race board designs with more traditional designs. Better to be used only for comparing new race boards with new race boards (SG vs F2 vs Kessler). BUT... you can't ignore them. The SCR (of a manufacturers board lineup) is important for comparison purposes.

And leaving the money aside, what would you choose for freecarving?

OK, OK... I'll come clean on this. If I'm heading out to have a day of just fun carving, I ride a COILER full Titanal board. It's a 'classic' race shape, not the new race board design. For me, this is what I prefer. It's a 178cm with 14.2m SCR.

When I need to put on my YYZCANUCK Inc. hat at the local races, of course I ride an F2 board. For these days I ride a Speedster 183 RS. Again it's the traditional shape with 16m SCR.

I think BlueB sums things up pretty well... the new race shapes are probably not the best choice for everyday freecarving. I too have ridden a number of Kessler & COILER shapes/sizes and when Mr.COILER made my new board this season... well... it was the tradional shape as noted above.

[philfell]

Don't get too caught up in the numbers game. The old style factory prime was designed to make GS sized turns. The new race boards are designed to make PGS sized turns (which is smaller then just a GS turn).

And yes the new SG rip in and OUT of the race courses.

[WinterGold]

This is really a great forum! Loads of information. Very helpful!

@blueB - my 185 was not my everyday carving board and the new one will also be for some special days. Exactly like you described it! If I can afford it, I will go with an SL board and a GS board ...

@philfell - alright, so I will go for it

@yyzcanuck - I think I got it now :D

@waypastfast - hopefully you´re right!

@snowman - I will kick the boards ...

[BlueB]

Race boards, carving boards, what's the difference?

Difference: One could freecarve on a race board; one could race on a freecarve board. However, right horses for courses is what gets you the most pleasure.

One more myth that needs to be dispelled is that pure race boards cannot be ridden as a regular carver.

No one tried to reinforce the stupid myth. See above...

Inkaholic rides his SG as an everyday stick. Phil Fell stated that these boards can be ridden as everyday carver and still rips through a race course. ColoradoKing rides his race boards as everyday carver and the list goes on. Just because a few cannot does not negate race boards as everydaay carver.

I would say exactelly opposite: Just because a few guys ride pure race stock boards as everyday carver, it doesn't mean that those boards are ideal for that purpose. There are better suited and easier boards designed for the task.

Lets analyse a bit the examples given:

Phil - former racer and alpine coach;

Ink - former racer and coach;

ColoradoKing - young, up and coming racer

This may be true if you are on a board that is not built for you.

Jumping on a custom WC board built for JJ is not going to ride ride like a board built for CK and MM will have a hard time on a board built for CK.

Isn't this true for every board?

To summarize: New race shapes are awsome. They work great in the race course and can be ridden as freecarvers. They are great fun to have in one's QUIVER. If a freecarver/rider was to have 1 or 2 boards only, he would be better of with something else. I'm talking about us - mere mortals, weekend warriors.

_

[yyzcanuck]

Hats off to Mr. Kessler if he's using a clothoid shape to his sidecut. I would imagine he's the only one doing so.

A simple method to create a shape that somewhat resembles a clothoid is to connect arcs of various diameter radii.

For example, take a 15m radius and remove part of the arc, then join an arc of 17m radius, then join an arc of 21m radius to create a smooth, multi radius arc that appears to be a clothoid.

Again, I'll say the manufacturer needs to provide some sort of comparative values for the consumer to evaluate the board. Perhaps 'effective' SCR isn't the proper term but... as long as the number is there, it can be used for initial decision making.

I don't think Kessler decided not publish the "effective, pseudo, quasi, crypto" SCR in order to prevent confusing his potential customers but rather to keep his competitors guessing a little while longer.

I'm curious to see how Kesslers are marketed to the general masses especially if there is such a huge difference between what is built for JJ vs CK vs MM vs DM vs JP vs ??.

[carvedog]

I still love my Burner and old Burton race stock boards but the new stuff is o so much better.

Innnaresting. Sounds like I need to get out and ride more new stuff. I am so in love with my Burners, it is hard to imagine anything responding better. Truly. The 188 gets a bit twitchy now and then off the tail, but the 197 is my rock. I her.

Difference: One could freecarve on a race board;.....

I would say exactelly opposite: Just because a few guys ride pure race stock boards as everyday carver, it doesn't mean that those boards are ideal for that purpose. There are better suited and easier boards designed for the task.

Lets analyse a bit the examples given:

Phil - former racer and alpine coach;

Ink - former racer and coach;

ColoradoKing - young, up and coming racer

I sucked at racing really. I did ok at a couple of events and I like to go fast but not so many wins for me. I did win a few downhills when I was the only one competing.

Is a Burner even considered race stock? That it is my go to carve board for all occasions means..........I am dinosaur.

What is the SCR for a 197? Anyone. Cuz I sure don't know.

Enjoying the conversation.

[Jack M]

Hats off to Mr. Kessler if he's using a clothoid shape to his sidecut. I would imagine he's the only one doing so.

If I'm understanding the definition of clothoid, then I would say Coiler is doing this too.

Again, I'll say the manufacturer needs to provide some sort of comparative values for the consumer to evaluate the board.

agreed.

I'm curious to see how Kesslers are marketed to the general masses especially if there is such a huge difference between what is built for JJ vs CK vs MM vs DM vs JP vs ??.

I filled out their request-for-info/quote form on their website, stating I was interested in getting a board. I got an email saying that someone would be in touch with me ASAP. That was in January.

[pokkis]

My friend send them email few weeks ago for race custom, and after less than two weeks he was on slope with board.

Board rides very nicely, for me it feels very much like my NSR even some different specs after half dozen runs. Would need more time dig out differences. I was just free carving on it, and it was pleasure to ride that, just like my NSR for practice track i could not take it cause he was on it.

EDIT: no i'm not for new Kessler, i'll wait for my new NSR

[KingCrimson]

Carvedog- Per Dave Roboteye's (Is that a play on the French-Canadian name Robitaille? (sp?) Just made that connection..) post-

Burner 188 has 182mm waist with a 16.72M radius

Burner 197 has 182mm waist with a 19 or so M radius.

[mr_roboteye]

Carvedog- Per Dave Roboteye's (Is that a play on the French-Canadian name Robitaille? (sp?) Just made that connection..) post-

Burner 188 has 182mm waist with a 16.72M radius

Burner 197 has 182mm waist with a 19 or so M radius.

You're the first person in history to spell it right by guessing, I'm impressed.

A burner 197 has a SCR of 19M or 19.2M, I can't remember.

Hey Theo, check out my pile of money....http://www.bomberonline.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=25318

later,

Dave R.

[KingCrimson]

You're the first person in history to spell it right by guessing, I'm impressed.

A burner 197 has a SCR of 19M or 19.2M, I can't remember.

Hey Theo, check out my pile of money....http://www.bomberonline.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=25318

later,

Dave R.

Haha thanks!

The money- Finally sell a Burton Asym or two?

[BlueB]

I think the new reference standard are GS and SL,

So, what about the "in between" size and turn shape, the favorite with majority of carvers? Back to introducing the FC in the mix?

[Bruce Varsava]

OK OK do I have to straighten all you jokers out!

I still consider raceboards as specialized boards. The occasional rider will like them for everyday use but they do have some limitations. The GS boards with higher sidecuts can easily be turned tighter if the snow is good but in some types of snow where you cannot trust setting a hard edge they will just keep accelerating which is not ideal. This makes them a board I would not really recommend as a daily ride. Tighter turning models with the multiple sidecuts would be much more user friendly and as you know I am working on those now.

If you think the sidecuts are super precise high mathematical equations, ummm, I doubt it. Working with racers we still were breaking it down to different radii on different parts of the board and blending them together. The other reason I say this is many times each side of a board are different even when new. I have personally seen a board which did very well at a high level race and both sides were quite different due to production tolerances, warpage etc. Asyms are back:)

When checking various other boards in the shop you can always match very closely the boards sidecut with the array of templates I have in stock. Usually pretty darn close to match the front, mid and rear sections with 3 different radii.

The multi radii boards are really sensitive to flex pattern design. If you put a new sidecut on an older flex pattern the boards will take about 1 mile to turn or will not bite properly on hard stuff. Great potential with these designs but they need to be precisely designed to get the all around usage. So what I find is you may know the sidecuts but if the flex pattern is not working in unison with them, turning will be unpredictable at best. Usually you get the mile long turn or a really on /off feel where its all or nothing in regards to rider input

I feel radial sidecut boards will be around for a long time yet as they do have certain characteristics which many riders find user friendly. Predictability in a turn and speed scrubbing as dictated by the flex pattern are very favorable for a lot of riders as we are not all super heroes on the hills, we're only super heroes in the forums:)