Colorado thoughts...

[SWriverstone]

Alex, that would be awesome if you're willing to do a beginner/intermediate clinic next year—count me in!

I think a good idea for next year is to get everybody together for something like the group photo then afterwards ask folks to seperate based on skill level. Have expert/advanced carvers on one side and then beginner/intermidiate on the other side. Then ask people to choose a partner and everybody go with their buddy for a couple runs.

Yes! Something like this is exactly what I was thinking about. While there is definitely value in riding with more advanced carvers...people also like to be with folks their own level. I don't always enjoy being low guy on the totem pole, because it tends to discourage (rather than encourage) me.

For this to happen, though, there need to be some pretty tight definitions of "intermediate" and "advanced." I know there are many carvers on this board (and at SES) who call themselves "intermediates," and I call BS on that because I saw several professed "intermediates" wailing down the mountain doing smokin' EC turns all the way.

Perhaps you're an intermediate if you're comparing yourself to Chris Klug or those French Fathers of EC...but that's a completely unrealistic comparison. In my book, an intermediate carver is...

• someone who does not ride blacks on plates

• someone who has never done an EC/fully laid-out turn

• someone who doesn't live and ride every day at a major resort

• someone who hasn't already had a decade of snowboarding experience before getting into carving (because that expeirnece counts for a lot!)

Asking a complete stranger to help with my techique seems a bit far fetched...epecially when most of the upper tier riders are so focused on demoing everything under the sun. It's a busy enviornment to say the least and I would feel like I'd be taking away from those people's time @ SES. Not to mention a good handful of the "advanced" riders are probably from the East coast and they are enjoying probably the best conditions for their entire season @ Aspen....so it's a lot to ask.

Yep. This is what I noticed...plus—and this is NOT a criticism—a lot of advanced folks are good buddies with other advanced riders. They might not have seen each other in a long time and want to catch up...or they might ride together all the time back home. So everyone falls into pretty tight little "buddy groups" and that makes it even harder/more intimidating for new carvers (and/or people who don't know anyone else) to break into the "buddy groups."

Example: I met a couple guys in the parking lot at Buttermilk early in the event. We shook hands, exchanged screen names, and everyone was friendly and cool. Later that day at the beer party, I approached the same guys—and they were completely engrossed in inside conversations with their long-time buddies and ignored my existence, even after I sat there trying to be friendly for a while. (So I got up and left.) I know—sounds like high school stuff, and sort of is!

I don't think anyone is suggesting the experts randomly approach people and start telling them what to do. But there's no harm in introducing yourself to people you don't know...and politely asking someone how long they've been carving...and where they're from...and then through conversation it'll become obvious whether someone could use some help or not.

Okay, I'll shutup now. LOL :)

Scott

[Allee]

Your definition of intermediate needs tweaking. Because by your definition I'm an intermediate, and I still consider myself one, but I'd probably smoke you.:)

I'd make it a definition of where you're most comfortable riding at Aspen ... on the greens (beginner) or on the blues (intermediate), and split it from there. Nice and simple.

[carverchick]

Allee is a rockstar on a board, I had the pleasure of getting my butt smoked by her on many occasions.

Oh and btw, I still consider myself a beginner (just for the record)

[SWriverstone]

Your definition of intermediate needs tweaking. Because by your definition I'm an intermediate, and I still consider myself one, but I'd probably smoke you.:)

I'd make it a definition of where you're most comfortable riding at Aspen ... on the greens (beginner) or on the blues (intermediate), and split it from there. Nice and simple.

LOL, well, that was just a stab at the definitions. :) But your definition needs tweaking too—because I'm happy & comfortable as anyone on the blues in Aspen...but yeah, you'd probably smoke me. :)

The best way to do it would be to get everyone to go to the top of a blue and ride down—while a couple experts watch and sort everyone. Seems like actually watching people would be a pretty quick-n-easy way to group people by ability. (And that whole exercise would also be a fun social thing and a way for everyone to see everyone else and start getting to know each other.)

Scott

PS - Perhaps another good sorting technique would be a simple question: "Do you like to ride FAST?" Because from what I've seen, there are people who are all about speed...and people who aren't. (I'm in the latter category. No matter how good I get, I'll never be about speed—I'm all about carving across the slope—not down it!)

[Michelle]

keep the thoughts coming guys, there's a lot of good ideas for us to brainstorm.

[queequeg]

keep the thoughts coming guys, there's a lot of good ideas for us to brainstorm.

It seems to me that something that may be useful could be some kind of physical message board at the tent for people looking for a bit of casual free personal coaching. Maybe a dry erase board, where you write your name, skill level and what you need help with? That may help people to hook up for this sort of thing, though I'm not sure how the logistics of it would actually work out.

Maybe to avoid legal issues you could just say you are looking for a ride buddy or something, and if you just happen to learn something along the way - hooray!

[Michelle]

I like it.....

[kjl]

Just wanted to say I was talking to a friend about how the "vibe" at the session is changing slowly from year to year, and it's unfortunate, but to me it seems like right now it is probably more intimidating and harder to meet people and get tips from people as a beginner or newcomer than it was 4-5 years ago. I really don't think it is due to anybody wanting to be exclusive or cliquey, or anything like that. I think it is just happening naturally as the group gets larger and more experienced.

I think the natural place for carvers to meet and dispense advice is on the sides of runs. The tent is intimidating for everybody, but when you slide up with a grin on your face to 3-4 carvers sitting on the side of a run, resting and psyching themselves up for an intimidating steep pitch, it's easy to get quick pointers and meet people.

When I first came to the session (2004 maybe?) there were just a handful of riders capable of carving even the steeps runs at Buttermilk, and on the easier runs like Buckskin you'd see dozens of beginning carvers like me strewn all over the sides of the runs, flopped over exhaustedly, meeting each other, randomly trading tips with each other. And it wasn't just experts giving advice to beginners; it was a lot of beginner collaboration as well. e.g. "Hey, any tips on how to hold the heelside?" "Well, last run I tried putting my weight on the front foot more and putting my back hand up by my front boot and that seemed to work better...".

I think just the fact that everybody is getting so much better so quickly is making it harder for that dynamic to happen. This year there were so many carvers on the mountain, and I hardly saw anybody resting on the sides of runs, especially on the beginner/intermediate runs.

In retrospect, I wish I had stopped more. Probably the most fun I had all session was when I slowed it down a notch and did a bunch of really relaxing runs with lots of stops with Jason, James, Daneille, and John (oldacura, is that you?). Not sure why I didn't do more of that later on. Must be confusing quantity with quality or something :)

I really like the whiteboard/ride-buddy idea. You could just have a list with a few times spread across the day (like a 10:00 column and a 1:00 column or something), and as a beginner you could write down that you are looking for help with your heelsides on the blues or whatever in the 10:00 column, and then at 10:00 "experts" or other people also interested could swing by the tent to see what people need.

And to all the experts out there, I think having to really think about what you might be doing automatically and subconsciously, and then organize it and put it into words can really improve your own riding as well, so there is a little added incentive in addition to feeling generally good about spreading the stoke around!

That being said, I would not worry about being a burden by asking somebody else for tips. It is quite flattering when somebody asks you....

[Hotbeans]

I haven't read all these posts, so, if it's been stated before, then I for one, voice the opinion that:

1. I really love carving because it IS different than what everyone else is doing and provides me a s#$%load of grins.

2. I couldn't care less what other people think about my carving, technique, or style. I ask other carvers for their input on how to sharpen my lines and, therefore, jack up the thrill factor. (If I cared what others thought, I would have quit a long time ago.).

3. I WANT carving to be a personal expression of freedom, skill and joy. I only speak for myself that you'll never see me in any "synchronized carving" event!

4. I've personally watched hardbooters running great lines since '97, and I'm sure they've existed before that. I'm not aware of any "recruiting" or "advertising" to increase our ranks.. aren't we slowly growing now? (SES is growing, isn't it??). Why are (some) people crying "ohhh, we have to do more to grow our sport, or board manufacturers will stop development (or whatever opinion was expressed...)?? Cry me a river.. the people who are interested in carving will pursue it.. the people who aren't, won't.

5. Sorry that there isn't an "newbie carver outreach program" ("newcoup"??). Ask, read what's available, approach (most) any carver and you'll find a friendly, helpful, passionate individual willing to share what he/she can... keep the advice that works for you, forget the stuff that doesn't. (There is PLENNTTY of evidence here on BOL that proves many here love to help/share their insights..).

I'm very happy as a learning novice and hope the learning curve takes 20 years!! Ahh, the joy of discovery...

(oh, and because I still flail down the mountain, NOBODY, and I mean NOBODY asks me for any advice! --Although I'd be happy to share!!;)

[two_ravens]

Interesting discussion. I went to SES last year as a complete beginner - hadn't really been on a snowboard for about 8 years and did my very first little toe side carve the day before SES officially started. Going there alone, not knowing anyone in the group, being a total beginner, and being female in a very male dominated sport added up to SES to being a rather intimidating experience. A few folks went out of their way to be friendly and welcoming (Allee, Softbootsailor and Fin come to mind.) Unfortunately I met a few rude people too, and being somewhat shy and thin-skinned, those experiences seem to leave a bigger mark on my memory.

I was rather surprised at the number of enlarged egos that I did encounter - I participate in another "fringe" sport, squirt boating (the red-headed step child of whitewater slalom) and having met literally most of the people who participate in that sport, there are only two in the whole country whose company I don't enjoy too much (and I will still paddle with them if I meet them on the river somewhere.) Maybe it's the higher risk level that keeps squirt boaters real.

I do believe that I would have had a better experience if I'd made it to this year's event, since I have a few more skills and would have been able to spend time on runs where there were more carvers, and I'm acquainted with a few folks now. I like the idea of the 'buddy board' - might be a fun way of getting people to mix a little.

I know Fin, Michelle and the Bomber crew put a huge amount of work into SES - don't know how much more they 'handholding' they can do for the beginners as busy as they are with demos and all the other activities. How about adding a separate table or space with another person designated just to greet/advise beginners (even if for just a couple hours each day?) It might be less intimidating for beginners to have their own spot, instead of having to try to elbow in between all the experts at the demo tents to ask 'silly' beginner questions. Just a thought. :)

[queequeg]

And to all the experts out there, I think having to really think about what you might be doing automatically and subconsciously, and then organize it and put it into words can really improve your own riding as well, so there is a little added incentive in addition to feeling generally good about spreading the stoke around!

This is a really great point! I would definitely not put myself in the expert category - but I have been teaching a friend to carve here on the east coast, and I really think that having to explain alpine technique in such a way that it can be understood to virgin ears has been one of the single most positive influences on my carving this season. Having to verbalize the technique with clarity for someone else has really forced me to examine how and why things work on the most fundamental basis possible. Teaching, seems like one of the very best ways to learn. That and it's just so cool to see somebody getting psyched on what you love to do, and to be able to help them enjoy it more.

[SWriverstone]

Alright two_ravens, a squirtboater! [momentarily off-topic] I was lucky enough to train with the guys who invented squirtboating—most squirtboaters today don't know or won't admit it, but it was slalom racers who invented it—specifically, slalom C-1 paddlers (Jon Lugbill, Davey Hearn, Bob Robison, Kent Ford) when they first figured out how to duck the stern underwater to sneak under gates. :) I still paddle a slalom C-1...you couldn't pay me to paddle a squirtboat! LOL [/back on topic]

This is a subject for another topic...and I've alluded to it before...but yes, I think carving is growing (albeit slowly)...and I think it's high time for people to recognize that there are actually (believe it or not!) different styles of carving.

I think too often it's assumed around here that everyone should carve the same way (e.g. EC turns)...but that's not the case. When I watch others carve, I see...

• some people like to do very shallow turns and focus on high-speed bombs down the mountain

• some people like to do nothing but connecting 180-degree, small-radius EC carves all the way down the mountain

• some people like to do slalom-racing style, quick back-and-forth, cross-under carves down the mountain

• some people like to do looooong turns that take them from treeline to treeline all the way down the mountain.

These are all very different styles. Is it good to know them all? Sure...but in reality, there are few people that do them all, all the time. Everyone gravitates toward one style or the other.

My point is that if someone at an SES event likes to do the last style above, they won't have much fun on the mountain with someone who likes to do the first style above...because they'll never see each other during the run! :)

So it's not just a matter of matching skill levels...but matching styles!

Scott

[John E]

This was my 1st SES. The thing I liked most about it was the sense of community. I went by myself and met a lot of great people. Some for just one lift ride or one run and some for longer.

I roomed at the St. Moritz with Jose (queequeg) and we ate most dinners together. Hanging out in the heated pool after riding was a great way to meet other riders from all over the world.

I fondly remember riding up the lift at the Highlands, watching very good riders gracefully carve up the perfect cord below. I enjoyed riding the lift and having other carvers wave to me from below simply because I was on an alpine board.

I originally had planned to drive home after riding on Friday not realizing the banquet was that night. I thought that I could ride all day and drive 4 hours home but not after the banquet. I recalled that on the "shared housing" thread that someone was looking for a roommate and I thought I could work out a deal for Friday night. I mentioned this to Michelle at the tent & she introduced me to Dr. Scott. He assured me that I could stay with them.

When the banquet was over, I asked if his offer was still good. He handed me his room key and said that he & his wife were going around town. He gave me directions to the Ritz Carlton at the Highlands, told me to give my keys to the valet and a number to call if I had any problems.

Mind you, we had just met and he was giving me the keys to his suite at the Ritz Carlton! I made up the pull-out bed in the living room & went to sleep. I got up early, left a thank-you note and headed home.

I went from the St. Moritz (dorm room) to the Ritz!

Though this may be an extreme example of generosity, I feel that it was the general sense of community at SES.

Dr. Scott - if you're reading this, thanks again for your generosity!