Freestyle in hard boots?

[lonerider]

Originally posted by $trider

I'm not sure if you do this as well. I was taught to carve through the pipe wall (using the downhill edge on the wall, but the uphill edge relative to the mountain) which always seems like a great way to catch your edge to me, but I've found that it really keeps your speed up and boosts you off the next wall.

That is actually what I was talking about when I posted. I'm not sure the sidecut radius has anything to do with this. I just find it easier to set that edge when I'm wearing hardboots whether its on my freestyle board or gs board. The main reason I get more boost from my race board isn't due to the sidecut, its due to the stiffness and extra camber the board has. When you decamber the racce board and let it snap back it gives a much larger "boost" up the wall than my freestyle board does.

Yea, when I was talking to NateW I was mostly refering to the board and not the bindings/boots. I also believe in having a nice and stiff board in the pipe so it stores up a lot of energy in in the transition like you said. I haven't tried hardboots on my freestyle board, but I did replace my old Salomon Sp4 Shapes bindings with a pair of Catek Freerides which should definitely be a step up in power and responsiveness. On the flipside I have a pair of Burton P1MD bindings, which are suppose to be supportive yes "flexy" as well according to the amusing description

The P1MD gives the high-performance riders more tweak and freedom than they’ve been previously offered in any high-end binding. The P1 MD offers a friendly medium flex in a sea of bindings that may be stiffer than you need.

We'll see how they do in the pipe compared to each other.

[Coldrider]

My limited understanding of the laws of physics tells me that the board has to be anchored, somehow, to generate a spin.

You can not generate rotation without having something to push against. An astronaut in space, for example, would not be able to start spinning unless they could push off another object--nor could they stop spinning once they started.

On earth, the same principle applies. You can not gererate rotation in the air. You need a stable platform under your feet while generating torque, and rotation, by throwing the upper body.

You can perfom counter rotation movements in the air, contracting the muscles of the torso and scissoring the legs to effect a big movement of the board (counter rotation of upper and lower body; most folks are able to get at least 180 degrees of redirection of the board in the air, and use it to make 'late' spin or recovery moves) but the net rotation of your entire body is still zero.

I guess the question I have is:

Does the board need to be on edge to provide this 'anchor', or is the friction and incidental resistance of the side edges contacting the snow on a flat board, plus the friction of the base against the snow sufficient to anchor the board?

[Strider]

There is a great pic of a lot of counter Coldrider...looks like you're just surveying in that pica and not actually turning.

I tried to stay out of the spin discussion, but here's my .02. As Cold said, you do need to push off something to get the spin started. Countering and bringing it back isn't efficient enough to get a whole lot of spin and also sets you up for a bad landing. It may look like the pros are spinning withoput pushing their board against the snow, but they just time it perfectly so its barely noticeable. Also, you don't need a huge push to get it going and once you do, countering the top of your body will accomplish a lot of fast spins easily. Now, beacuse you only need something to push off of for a tiny amount of time, and it doesn't have to be with much force, ity shouldn't matter if you do it off and edge, or a flat board. I can spin either way and I find it depends on what kind of jump I'm on and how I'm riding into it. Both seem to work equally fine for me and it really boils down to which I', more comfortable with.....switch spins I like to set my edge, regular I ride mostly flat, frontsides I ride in flat, backsides I set more edge. After watching many people in the park I think it boils down to wheta fits each persons comfort zone. I know 2 riders who both go huge and both look awesome and comfortable doing it and each has a different style coming off the lip...one guy rides flat, and one guy is always on edge. I wouldn't say either of them is better than the other, just differnt approaches. I haven't watched the pros that closely, and often times the TV is at an angle where you can't see those things, so it would be interesting to see if they predominantly use one way versus the other.

[lonerider]

Originally posted by Coldrider

I guess the question I have is:

Does the board need to be on edge to provide this 'anchor', or is the friction and incidental resistance of the side edges contacting the snow on a flat board, plus the friction of the base against the snow sufficient to anchor the board?

This what I've been saying (in the earlier posts) - I personally don't think the board needs to be on a carving edge to anchor you. If you just "pressure" or "weight" the board it still "stick" just enough to the snow for your to cork your shoulders (which is where you get you rotation, not by turning the board). The board doesn't really skid, or carve... it just kind "sticks" while you uncork your shoulders, then you unweight the board on takeoff once your shoulders are going and that's what carries you through the spin (keep looking into the turn and keeping those shoulders going, open them up once you spot your landing).

Everyone uses this effect when "scooting" their board forward at slow speeds. You weight your front foot heavily and swing your weight backward, because you weight is pressing down on the board, the board sticks a little (instead of sliding forward) then you swing your weight forward and unweight your foot, suddenly your board no longer sticks to the ground and is carried forward by your forward momentum.

Update: Strider, a little edge can happen as you said... I'm mainly disagreeing with NateW's contention that you should carve up the approach and carve into a spin. For me, carving sounds a lot more severe than a little edge. Maybe that's all Nate is referring to... a tiny bit of edge... but it just didn't sound like that to me (he mentioned he could see his own trench up the takeoff ramp). My thinking is as little edge as you can handle, and I thought NateW seems to imply a lot of edge.

[Coldrider]

...looks like you're just surveying in that pica and not actually turning

You're right. But that's mostly because I was shooting the photo.

Image is of a friend surveying North Pole Chute at A-Basin. Short hike. Steep chute. Good ride.

Here's another image from the same session, with actual turns.

[LeeW]

Originally posted by D-Sub

Nick Perata

That was one of three major injuries in the flick.

Steve Graham broke his leg makin turns in the back country at big mountain

I think it might have been Noah Salasnek that hit the tree launching a rock...

but...Nick Perata...that was ****ing scary.

wonder what ever happened to that cat

Came across a neat book by Sean Sullivan and there was photos of Nick Perata. I recommend that book by Sean Sullivan. Very artsy and appreciation-inspired.

[NateW]

Imagine the least possible amount of edge that would still leave a visible arc in the snow. :) It could honestly be smaller, and I was actually focusing on making it smaller toward the end of last season.... I don't mean to be giving the impression that I'm making trenches while I'm setting up my 360s.

I can sorta understand the idea of pushing off the base alone, because I don't think I use the edge at all for 180s... I should work on backside 180s for a while and try to turn them into 360s using the same technique.

> Common sense seems to tell me that

> if what you say is true (~13m sidecuts

> are unquestionably better for halfpipe)

> someone would have already done it.

Yeah, but common sense told me we should have had far deeper sidecuts on our skis 25 years ago when I was in 4th grade and read about what sidecuts are for. (I was out of high school when the Elan SCX came out, and I almost wet myelf when I first saw them.)

Anyhow, I wouldn't be surprised if a few pros had freestyle boards built with GS-ish sidecuts, and tried then, and chose to stick with ~8m sidecuts. But I also wouldn't be surprised if none of them have. The idea is just far enough outside the box to be overlooked. And I'm continually surprised by the number of good riders who really don't understand sidecut. I don't know any pros though, maybe they all 'get it' but I wouldn't bet on that.

This is a fun thread, by the way. Thanks for getting this ball rolling, Quest4Powder. :)

[lonerider]

Originally posted by NateW

Imagine the least possible amount of edge that would still leave a visible arc in the snow. :) It could honestly be smaller, and I was actually focusing on making it smaller toward the end of last season.... I don't mean to be giving the impression that I'm making trenches while I'm setting up my 360s.

I can sorta understand the idea of pushing off the base alone, because I don't think I use the edge at all for 180s... I should work on backside 180s for a while and try to turn them into 360s using the same technique.

Anyhow, I wouldn't be surprised if a few pros had freestyle boards built with GS-ish sidecuts, and tried then, and chose to stick with ~8m sidecuts. But I also wouldn't be surprised if none of them have. The idea is just far enough outside the box to be overlooked. And I'm continually surprised by the number of good riders who really don't understand sidecut. I don't know any pros though, maybe they all 'get it' but I wouldn't bet on that.

This is a fun thread, by the way. Thanks for getting this ball rolling, Quest4Powder. :)

Ok... yea, I was under the incorrect impression that you were making hard carves. So yea, we really have the same thing in mind. I agree that a light light carve might be nice, especially if you have a long sidecut to make it nice and stable.

[Strider]

Originally posted by Coldrider

You're right. But that's mostly because I was shooting the photo.

Image is of a friend surveying North Pole Chute at A-Basin. Short hike. Steep chute. Good ride.

Here's another image from the same session, with actual turns.

Thats a really nice set of pics...wish I had some more practice with my camera so I could get some nice shots like that!!!!

[quest4powder]

There was an article in the AASI magazine this past winter on this topic. It maintained that slight edging was necessary to pre-wind and throw larger spin moves, and detailed approach lines for regular and goofy riders.

It further maintained that a 'flat board' technique can result in the board skidding out underneath the rider on bigger spins, where the torque you tried to generate by throwing the upper body would result in a flat board breaking away--overcoming the small amount of friction and incidental edging holding it in place--and resulting in a loss of 'anchor' by which to throw a spin move.

The line that the author encourages to throw spins is a carved 'S' line on the feature. Most riders I see--even those who toss big spins--take a more straight ahead line, and I wonder if the amount of edging they use is correspondingly less.

I'm attaching a scanned image from the article, but apologize in advance for the image quality. I'm using a stone-age scanner.

________

MEDICAL MARIJUANA DISPENSARIES

[northcoast]

I read that article. It really helped doing the "S". Before I would do just a slight carve to help the prewind. My spins are still a work in progress and have been limited due to an injured shoulder and a fear factor of increased injury but doing the S definitely helped. On a side note... NateW kicks @**. He is one of my favorite riders to watch. How often do you see someone digging trenches and throwing spins effortlessly in between?

Nate, I think the biggest kicker in the middle section at West is 30 ft with a 20 ft table. The big ones to the left are 30, 40, and 50'.

________

How to roll a blunt

[lonerider]

Originally posted by quest4powder

There was an article in the AASI magazine this past winter on this topic. It maintained that slight edging was necessary to pre-wind and throw larger spin moves, and detailed approach lines for regular and goofy riders.

It further maintained that a 'flat board' technique can result in the board skidding out underneath the rider on bigger spins, where the torque you tried to generate by throwing the upper body would result in a flat board breaking away--overcoming the small amount of friction and incidental edging holding it in place--and resulting in a loss of 'anchor' by which to throw a spin move.

The line that the author encourages to throw spins is a carved 'S' line on the feature. Most riders I see--even those who toss big spins--take a more straight ahead line, and I wonder if the amount of edging they use is correspondingly less.

I'm attaching a scanned image from the article, but apologize in advance for the image quality. I'm using a stone-age scanner.

Interesting... that all makes sense to me, my comments were really for 180s and 360s, and while I've definitely seen people do 540s with the flatboard technique, I could be convinced that a 'S' manuever works better (I'll have to try it this winter). In general, while I still personally edge a bit in my 360s, I try to make it as slight an edge as possible as the natural tendency is to dig it hard to carve it.

You don't happen to have the text of the article available, do you?

[boostertwo]

You don't happen to have the text of the article available, do you?

The article is titled "Line Up Your Approach to Spins in the Terrain Park", by Jeff Brier.

You can get a copy of the magazine by contacting <I>The Pro Rider</I> <A HREF="MAILTO:wschrupp@aasi.org">editorial staff</a>.

Hope this helps.

<img src="http://www.keyssonline.com/ncprojects/jpsoulcarves-combo.gif" alt="" border="0">

Cheers,

B-2

[NateW]

Thanks, Kevin!

The big ones they built on the far left last season frighten me... The lengths are not so bad, it's the huge kickers that worry me - coming up short on those would be death. I feel a lot safer on the middle and right sets.

The "S" approach fits what I've been doing for 360s. It's reassuring to hear I'm not the only one. :)

[lonerider]

Originally posted by NateW

Thanks, Kevin!

The big ones they built on the far left last season frighten me... The lengths are not so bad, it's the huge kickers that worry me - coming up short on those would be death. I feel a lot safer on the middle and right sets

You should try kickers, they are a lot of fun. They should have really long landings, so just go really fast so not to land short... you have the 13m sidecut board... and you definitely have more than enough ability.

The thing I keep wussing out on is the transfer gap jump, where the have two 35 foot tabletops 15 feet apart from each other and you take of from one table and land on the other table. It's just something about the angled approach that scares me.

[northcoast]

Nate...the problems with the those is that they weren't built very well. (Actually all the parks weren't built very well hence the fact that I tended to overshoot just about everything and ended up breaking two boards last season...crappy Burtons not the new Doneks). I thought those jumps were big 'til we did a trip down to Hood the weekend before my surgery. The jumps they had on the Texas Trail were monstrous. One run through there and I was back down to the main park where all the rails and half pipe were.

________

LITTLEBUTTERFYFOR4

[NateW]

Yeah, I want a word or two with the people who design the parks up there.

Did you hear about the guy that died at Summit Central last year? It'll always be possible to kill yourself with big jumps but they could at least make it challenging to do so. That time it was a guy who overshot, next year it'll be someone who undershoots.

I dunno really, maybe that's just my old age speaking. :)

[northcoast]

Yeah I heard about that one. He was a skier who bombed straight from the top of Central Express with no shirt or helmet when things were starting to ice up in the late afternoon. Ruptured spleen I think. The thing that pissed me off most about the parks is that they brought in Frank Wells last year to design the parks and they were even worse than the year before when Gunny did them. They should send the park guys on a field trip to other mountains (Hood & Tahoe) to see how things are done.

________

Pornstars Cuban

[Mike T]

Originally posted by northcoast

They should send the park guys on a field trip to other mountains (Hood & Tahoe) to see how things are done.

Mt Hood Meadows consistently screws up their entry-level parks. They build the smaller kickers so that an expert park rider charging full steam clears the table. They should build them so that a beginning park rider has a prayer of clearing the table. The tables are generally too long for the kicker size.

The other problem is the proximity. The small jumps are way, way too close together. When I actually do land on the tranny, I don't have time to get set for the next jump, I'm alrday on top of it.

Timberline on the other hand, has always impressed me by building all their jumps equally well.

[Slim]

Big air off big jumps can cause catastrophic injuries.

A friend who patrols at a major resort in Colorado was first responder to an injury in the terrain park. Upon examination, the rider seemed to be OK (responsive to questions, alert and aware) but banged up. He was taken to the clinic in a toboggan.

He soon went into hypovolemic shock and died in the clinic from a lacerated liver.

It's a tragic death--one that still haunts my friend.

I certainly like to jump and ride the park--in hard boots--but cringe when watching others who may not recognize the risk of missing a big air. Often they go bigger than their skills warrant.

Booster--that is one hell of a cool picture. How do you do that?

[lonerider]

Originally posted by Slim

Big air off big jumps can cause catastrophic injuries.

A friend who patrols at a major resort in Colorado was first responder to an injury in the terrain park. Upon examination, the rider seemed to be OK (responsive to questions, alert and aware) but banged up. He was taken to the clinic in a toboggan.

He soon went into hypovolemic shock and died in the clinic from a lacerated liver.

It's a tragic death--one that still haunts my friend.

I certainly like to jump and ride the park--in hard boots--but cringe when watching others who may not recognize the risk of missing a big air. Often they go bigger than their skills warrant.

Booster--that is one hell of a cool picture. How do you do that?

I was about to ask whether a ruptured spleen and other such chest injuries could be fatal so quickly. Yikes... well, only makes me feel slightly more justified in getting my torso tool although I got it mainly to help avoid being banged up in minor spills... not really depending on my helmet, jacket, shorts, and knee pads to protect me from catastrophic collisions (best not to get into them in the first place).

[jason_watkins]

Originally posted by Mike T

Mt Hood Meadows consistently screws up their entry-level parks. They build the smaller kickers so that an expert park rider charging full steam clears the table. They should build them so that a beginning park rider has a prayer of clearing the table. The tables are generally too long for the kicker size.

I thought the tables under the HRM lift were ok this year. I could clear them, and I'm the biggest puss ever when it comes to tables. I agree tho, the beginner park at timberline season before last was exactly right for a newbie like me to get some comfort in the air without danger of death.

The jumps they had on the Texas Trail were monstrous.

I'm in awe of people who can hit jumps that big and not kill themselves. I can't recall seeing a single person hit those any of the days I was up.

That time it was a guy who overshot, next year it'll be someone who undershoots.

One of my buddies aparently overshot the medium tables on the mile at timberline this spring. I say aparently since he had a concussion and can't remember what happened. He was told by patrol he overshot. If it hadn't been for the helmet, who knows how bad of shape he'd be in.

Of course, I don't think that's going to stop him one bit from charging harder on those tables next season. :rolleyes:

[Mike T]

Originally posted by jason_watkins

I thought the tables under the HRM lift were ok this year. I could clear them, and I'm the biggest puss ever when it comes to tables. I agree tho, the beginner park at timberline season before last was exactly right for a newbie like me to get some comfort in the air without danger of death.

Right the small ones under HRM were OK. The ones under Easy Rider, though, had too long of a table for their kick and were too close together. I was able to hit the last of the three right if I skipped the first two....

[LeeW]

Originally posted by Slim

Big air off big jumps can cause catastrophic injuries.

A friend who patrols at a major resort in Colorado was first responder to an injury in the terrain park. Upon examination, the rider seemed to be OK (responsive to questions, alert and aware) but banged up. He was taken to the clinic in a toboggan.

He soon went into hypovolemic shock and died in the clinic from a lacerated liver.

It's a tragic death--one that still haunts my friend.

I certainly like to jump and ride the park--in hard boots--but cringe when watching others who may not recognize the risk of missing a big air. Often they go bigger than their skills warrant.

Booster--that is one hell of a cool picture. How do you do that?

Hmm, I feel for this guy. However, I need to point out in a snowboard park/halfpipe design class Ive taken with NSAA. Statistics show that the injury rate is higher in beginner's park than it is in the expert park.

[lonerider]

Originally posted by LeeW

Hmm, I feel for this guy. However, I need to point out in a snowboard park/halfpipe design class Ive taken with NSAA. Statistics show that the injury rate is higher in beginner's park than it is in the expert park.

Sure... lots of bruises and even fractured wrists and sprained joints... but the "catastrophic" injuries mentioned by the previous poster tends to only be on bigger jumps (even those are rather rare from what I know).

I agree with Slim... only do jumps that you have a reasonable chance at clearing. There are totally people who have no chance of clearing some jumps in the Kirkwood Superpark (small table is 35 ft). One person didn't even clear the back end of the 15x7 ft takeoff ramp. It's a really "good" way of getting yourself and others hurt.

Avoid poorly designed jumps - ones with not enough room to gain speed, bumpy lip, extra long gaps, short landing, etc... if they are causing you trouble. Fine a jump that's the right size and quality for you and session it to practice.