Bruce Varsava Posted January 16, 2009 Report Share Posted January 16, 2009 Haha no can of worms here. You answered my question. One more though..so assuming two boards with same flex, same SCR, but added taper, the one with taper will feel turnier throughout the turn or only initially? Not really turnier as they should make the same arc but more like it would want to dart off in a different direction quicker. At the end of the turn you notice the tail does not want to come under you and across the hill as much giving the feel of less turning at the end. A couple mm and you can notice the difference. BV Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JJFluff Posted January 16, 2009 Report Share Posted January 16, 2009 Totally not true. Obviously the person and technique make a big difference, but different boards have very different characteristics. I started out on a 178 Proton, and hated it because it does have the propensity to get stuck in a carve. I love Prior because they are totally opposite in that regards. In terms of transitioning, riding, etc., board selection makes a huge difference, hence the awesomeness that are metal boards. The width of a board, how the bindings are setup, every thing that you can change, including our technique, has an impact, and to dismiss everything to technique, is somewhat silly, even though it does play a significant role in how one rides. I agree, I was trying to make the point that every board can be mastered. By changing technique, a board that may react differently from another can be ridden with similar results over time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JJFluff Posted January 16, 2009 Report Share Posted January 16, 2009 Well folks you can get down the hill ( almost) on anything but luckily I get to test 50 to 70 different boards per season and many times identical shape boards with very minor changes internally which can really make a noticeable difference. If you are having that much trouble with one board and not the other , it is the board. Good technique can make most things rideable but still not necessarily enjoyable. There are some real dogs out there so beware. My perspective is totally different and its not because I don't have enough work! Many times I'll read about someone having trouble with one thing or another and no way would I put up with it and that is why I started building them in the first place. A properly designed and built board is almost like riding on auto pilot where you just worry about what you want to do and not what the board tells you to do.BV I hope I am never on autopilot. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KingCrimson Posted January 16, 2009 Report Share Posted January 16, 2009 You don't like that feeling? Happens to me on steeper stuff sometimes, you just kinda sit back and enjoy the ride, and grin because you have the feeling of "wtf am I doing and why is it working" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bruce Varsava Posted January 16, 2009 Report Share Posted January 16, 2009 I agree, I was trying to make the point that every board can be mastered. By changing technique, a board that may react differently from another can be ridden with similar results over time. You are unfortunately not slightly, microscopically, infinitesimally, or even remotely close to correct on that point. For an easy example I still have the first board I ever built, very very stiff. So according to your theory I should be able to rip steep icy hills with it? The thing is crazy stiff and I have seen a few production boards nearly as stiff I get feedback all the time from riders and the ones who are most impressed are the ones coming from harder to ride, less refined gear. Here is a message I received a few days ago and have lots similar "Bruce: Rode the 173 Stubby at Tahoe this weekend for the first time. All I can say is that you are a God and the Stubby is the holy grail of carving. I'm blown away by the insane edge hold, amazing stability at speed and tight turn radius- all in one board. The Stubby makes my custom (bleep) feel like something from Toys-R-Us! On the first run on the Stubby I couldn't believe I was getting the amount of edge hold I was feeling in the board, so I started pushing it harder and harder, going faster, and pumping the board hard. It kept nailed to the snow like it was on rails while still making really tight turns. The board really expands the envelope for good technical carving relative to other boards- steeper, choppier snow, narrower runs. I've ridden a lot of carving boards in the last 15 years and this one is in a different league. You've hit a homerun with this board, and you're my guy from now on" Thats why I do it man! Just to spread the joy:) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
b0ardski Posted January 16, 2009 Report Share Posted January 16, 2009 can be ridden with adjusted techinque. I ride tapered board switch and the more taper the more technique adjustment is necessary. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NateW Posted January 16, 2009 Report Share Posted January 16, 2009 Zero taper is enough. Nothing wrong with a few mm though. I have had boards with taper and without taper, and frankly I think the difference is negligible. It does not matter if your front foot is / is-not 2mm higher off the snow during a turn. It only matters for that instant when you're changing edges. As you exit a turn on a board with taper, you're ever-so-slightly aimed toward the next turn - but as you engage the next edge, you're ever-so-slightly aimed away from the turn. That's what math nerds call a "zero sum game." Whatever you win in one situation (turn exit) you lose in another (turn entry). Net effect: it feels a bit different, but that's about all. In theory it should make a board slightly less hooky when riding base-flat. In practice, meh. Detuning (or not detuning) makes a huge difference in how hooky a board feels. Taper, negligible. I ride switch a lot more than most hardbooters, and I've never felt a difference in that scenario either. $0.02 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NateW Posted January 16, 2009 Report Share Posted January 16, 2009 Bruce talked me into 6 mm of taper to allow for release into the next turn, at least thats what he said. I (and my board that is done and tested) am waiting patiently for the topsheet to get thru customs (3+ weeks), once I get it I can share on how the taper helps. I had an old aggression 173 that was very hooky and put me in the woods a few times.I would say 4-6mm of taper. Was the Aggression detuned? I'm guessing not. Or not enough. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D-Sub Posted January 16, 2009 Report Share Posted January 16, 2009 never seen Bruce so confrontational, but JJFluff has that effect on people ;) JJ...you do know who Bruce is, right? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bruce Varsava Posted January 16, 2009 Report Share Posted January 16, 2009 Problem with taper is it is like nose shape, easy to see( or measure for taper ) but there are soooo many other factors that affect board ride which cannot be seen which are much more influential to the performance. For a board to toss you into the woods, I would think it was more of a stiffness/flex issue rather than taper, or even a sidecut that tightens towards the tail. Both of those would have more effect on seeing the lumber close up rather than taper. Confrontational, well if someone is giving that kind of advice he deserves it. Not like I haven't spent a bunch of years working on boards just to do the same riding I was doing before. BV Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tex1230 Posted January 16, 2009 Report Share Posted January 16, 2009 (Please don't take offense, JJ, as I have never seen you ride in person and don't know your abilities) JJ has a point in his assertion that we tend to be too quick to blame equipment here. Technique is the key, gear comes second. I highly doubt that a beginner to low intermediate rider can tell the difference between a Burton Coil and a Custom Coiler under his feet. You have to get to a certain level of expertise to tell the differences between various flexes and sidecuts. And another level still to appreciate the differences in binding interfaces and materials in the board. Perhaps those questioning the value of higher end boards are stuck in a terminal intermediate rut, not unlike the guy in the other thread asking why some of us choose to ride slopes too steep to carve. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Houghton Posted January 16, 2009 Report Share Posted January 16, 2009 I've personally seen riders with less than 10 days in hardboots being transformed by a better board. Maybe not everyone, but I don't think you can generalize and say that a relatively high level of skill is needed to appreciate better quality equipment. My opinion is that many people don't know that better equipment is available and as a result they are stuck at low intermediate levels, unmotivated to improve. Almost forgot - I've seen a few people trying to ride equipment that is past it's use before date (edge high, base convex, etc.) and damaged equipment (no camber in front of the the bindings - hit a lift pole, almost broken in half behind the bindings, but epoxied together to ride yet another day) that really prevents them from progressing. But they still look like they are having fun. Imagine how they'd feel if they got on a board that really worked for them! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bobby Buggs Posted January 16, 2009 Report Share Posted January 16, 2009 I've personally seen riders with less than 10 days in hardboots being transformed by a better board. Well you can only think about so much at 1 time. Just like any sport, the more things you can put on auto pilot the more you can work on advancing your skills and refining specific techniques. I know for a fact my 1st Coiler all mountain MADE me a better rider. Over the years I have seen more than a few people struggle with that Proton board. Do me a favor, try and hook up with Bruce to test one of his demo's and report back. I would be very interested in your review. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yyzcanuck Posted January 16, 2009 Report Share Posted January 16, 2009 ... Better yet, bring the evil board in question along to the shop and I'll toss it on the stiffness testing jig and check the flex pattern. ... I've got that data on the 2008 Protons. The 178 is quite soft in front of the bindings and much too stiff behind the bindings. The ONLY way I could make that board work well for me is by moving the bindings all the way back on the inserts. Turned it into a different ride immediately. I have the complete lineup of Protons and can tell you the 164 and 185 perform the best for me. The 172 and 178 both need the bindings set back. I believe the original poster is having trouble with the board not his technique. His technique may not be perfect but it works on one of his boards so it should work on the other. Take Bruce up on his offer to test a board or two. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gecko Posted January 16, 2009 Report Share Posted January 16, 2009 I highly doubt that a beginner to low intermediate rider can tell the difference between a Burton Coil and a Custom Coiler under his feet. You have to get to a certain level of expertise to tell the differences between various flexes and sidecuts. I've personally seen riders with less than 10 days in hardboots being transformed by a better board Well you can only think about so much at 1 time. Just like any sport, the more things you can put on auto pilot the more you can work on advancing your skills and refining specific techniques. I know for a fact my 1st Coiler all mountain MADE me a better rider. I'm not a less than 10 day but I was a terminal low intermediate rider until I received my 1st Coiler RC There is no question in my mind that it made me a much better rider though I was probably in desperate need of a better board. I am still learning more about this board and how it can help me 4 years later Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JJFluff Posted January 16, 2009 Report Share Posted January 16, 2009 never seen Bruce so confrontational, but JJFluff has that effect on people ;)JJ...you do know who Bruce is, right? Bruce is a board builder. From what I hear a damn good one. I am not questioning his ability that is for sure. Just stating the truth....(In most cases) One doesn't need a new board to ride better, One may just want one. What I need to do is get a third job so I can keep up with the Jones' :D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
canuckcarver Posted January 16, 2009 Author Report Share Posted January 16, 2009 wow so much to relpy too.ill make it quick im at work. i emailed bruce about a demo and he said he didnt have anything avail. same for a bunch of other places i contacted, i figured ill just buy from yyz, i am on a tight budget and bruces stuff is nice but out of my range, maybe next year. i got to squirrel away some cash. i would love to try a different board, but first i got get some confidence back , i went 20ft into the woods at blue. so im a bit tender on my left side. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yyzcanuck Posted January 16, 2009 Report Share Posted January 16, 2009 Go to Mount St.Louis - Moonstone and get your confidence back. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JJFluff Posted January 16, 2009 Report Share Posted January 16, 2009 (Please don't take offense, JJ, as I have never seen you ride in person and don't know your abilities)JJ has a point in his assertion that we tend to be too quick to blame equipment here. Technique is the key, gear comes second. I highly doubt that a beginner to low intermediate rider can tell the difference between a Burton Coil and a Custom Coiler under his feet. You have to get to a certain level of expertise to tell the differences between various flexes and sidecuts. And another level still to appreciate the differences in binding interfaces and materials in the board. Perhaps those questioning the value of higher end boards are stuck in a terminal intermediate rut, not unlike the guy in the other thread asking why some of us choose to ride slopes too steep to carve. No offense taken, I agree. I don't question that the board is better. But a expert rider can make a lesser board better too. A beginner to intermediate rider does not need to spend 800+ on a board. They will never get out of it what was put in. It would be like me going out and buying a $35 dollar box of golf balls because Tiger hits them 30yards further. I might as well take the 35 dollars and throw it in the water and save myself some time. A range ball would react the same off my club because of my lack of technique. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Louis Posted January 16, 2009 Report Share Posted January 16, 2009 I disagree with people saying that you need to have high level technique and knowledge of riding to feel the difference between boards. As long as one knows how to turn and moderatly carve he WILL feel the difference between boards. I would go foward and state that if you set aside skill and experience, some people will just have more feeback than others. It's like driving a car, some people can feel it and others don't. It's not a question of knowledge and skill, it's more a question of how well you can get feedback from your gear. Experience does help a little, but like everywhere else in life, some have it, some don't. I'm pretty confident that a high end board (race or soft) will be rewarding (over a lower end board) for ANY level of riding. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tex1230 Posted January 16, 2009 Report Share Posted January 16, 2009 No offense taken, I agree. I don't question that the board is better. But a expert rider can make a lesser board better too. A beginner to intermediate rider does not need to spend 800+ on a board. They will never get out of it what was put in. It would be like me going out and buying a $35 dollar box of golf balls because Tiger hits them 30yards further. I might as well take the 35 dollars and throw it in the water and save myself some time. A range ball would react the same off my club because of my lack of technique. I was gonna use a golf analogy too...great minds think alike Was going to mention that It doesn't matter if I use a 20-year old driver out of my stepdad's bag or the newest Burner or whatever...The ball is still going 100 yards into the nearest woods Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JJFluff Posted January 16, 2009 Report Share Posted January 16, 2009 I was gonna use a golf analogy too...great minds think alike Was going to mention that It doesn't matter if I use a 20-year old driver out of my stepdad's bag or the newest Burner or whatever...The ball is still going 100 yards into the nearest woods True that! At the same time give that 20-year old driver to tiger and he probably get 150 more yards out of it than you would. No offense. :D And then, he would give you that club back and respectively say, I think I'll keep using what I got. So yes, the new toys are better, but one can get a lot out of the old if used correctly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JK moscraciun Posted January 16, 2009 Report Share Posted January 16, 2009 What? Who said taper? my new toy got a full 2 cm of it!!!! and I suspect that taper si mixing well with decamber! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gecko Posted January 16, 2009 Report Share Posted January 16, 2009 So yes, the new toys are better, but one can get a lot out of the old if used correctly. as true as that is there is no way I am going to ride an Asym:smashfrea Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KingCrimson Posted January 16, 2009 Report Share Posted January 16, 2009 What?Who said taper? my new toy is got! a full 2 cm of it!!!! and I suspect that taper si mixing well with decamber! Is that the Titanal SG Full Race? The specs look ridiculous, isn't the SG that crazy? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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