Bending the board into smaller turns

[LeeW]

I've been reading that you can force a board with a large sidecut radius into a smaller turn by bending/decambering it. I had no idea what to do so I tried stomping on my board mid-carve and that resulted in the most bone rattling chatter ever

Can you guys explain to this padawan learner how to bend the board?

For some reason, when I saw the topic "Bending the board into smaller turns," my first thought was "oh man -- that's -NOT- good -SNAP!-" I hope you get the gist of what I'm implying? This definitly applies to old old old alpine snowboards.

[pogokoenig]

For a given sidecut radius and speed, there is exactly one turn radius the board will truly carve with no angulation.

You are right. Only one thing: There is no given speed. Speed changes during the carve. I am with you regarding the angulation. But it is not the only way to change the radius.

If you go faster into a turn and lay the board down you can dramatically tighten your carve without body angulation. Speed and inclination are variables you can work with.

[Jack M]

You are right. Only one thing: There is no given speed. Speed changes during the carve. I am with you regarding the angulation. But it is not the only way to change the radius.

If you go faster into a turn and lay the board down you can dramatically tighten your carve without body angulation. Speed and inclination are variables you can work with.

We're saying the same thing. Carve radius is a <i><b>function</i></b> of sidecut radius, speed, and angulation. If you're interested, that function is here.

So whatever your speed is, your true carve radius is fixed (if no angulation).

[BobD]

1) put more weight on the front foot and less on the back.

Driving in the nose of the board, that's what tightens the turn if all the other variables are the same. It's also the best way to control speed as it has a significant breaking effect (to the point of totally killing your speed if overdone). Don't hit any ruts, or you'll be over the handlebars.

(this is shifting your weight foreward, not pushing out with your front foot)

BobD

[queequeg]

You guys all make it sound so easy, but I've been struggling with tightening up my turns for a long time. Especially heelside turns. The faster I go, the bigger my turns get, which seems to be the opposite of what should be happening. I go faster and faster and the turns get bigger an bigger and I continue to accelerate until I have to skid to control my speed. I've worked on completing my turns (making full C-shaped turns) and trying to put the board higher on its egde, but I still can't seem to tighten up my heelsides, especially on steeper terrain. The one thing that I found that helps a little is to put more pressure on the nose of the board, but that still only seems to work on a more moderate pitch.

I think jacks advice about grabbing your boot is right on. Another thing you might try along the same lines is rather than grabbing for your boot trying to JAM your OUTSIDE elbow into your LEADING knee very early in the turn - your body has to be in a pretty compressed position to achieve this. This will achieve a very crouched stance (gives you lots of potential energy you can feed to the board) and rather extreme inclination (which in this case should lead to greater angulation). Do this in your turn initiation, and then quickly and *smoothly* press out with your feet (extend your legs a bit to release some of that potential energy) while feeding your board through the turn. This will put *alot* of pressure on your edges at high angulation, resulting in a shorter more violent turn. Just don't lean too far forward while doing this or you'll be in for an unpleasant surprise. I ride a somewhat stiff board for my weight and have no problem doing this. I notice it tends to bounce you out of your turns with a lot of energy - fun!

I've been playing around with this a lot lately - I have found it much easier to do on my heelside. On the toeside It is a little tricker because you have to remember to push out with your toes too ... I seem to have a tendency to just let my ankles go loose which opens up the radius of my turns. I also have more trouble getting highly angulated on the toesides so I achieve somewhat less inclination as a result.

Notably, the greater board angulation you achieve the tighter your carve will be -- and as board angulation increases so does the effect of further increasing angulation. The difference between two arcs carved with 15 degrees and 20 degrees of angulation will not be all that significant -- however - The difference between two arcs carved with 65 degrees and 70 degrees of angulation will be quite dramatic. This is because the board has to decamber that much further at higher inclination to maintain contact throughout the snow between your feet.

[BadBrad]

I've been playing around with this a lot lately - I have found it much easier to do on my heelside. On the toeside It is a little tricker because you have to remember to push out with your toes too ... I seem to have a tendency to just let my ankles go loose which opens up the radius of my turns. I also have more trouble getting highly angulated on the toesides so I achieve somewhat less inclination as a result.

Interesting. I find it easier to tighten the toeside turn because I can just bend my knees more to get the board higher on edge. Heelside is where I tend to struggle.

I have done the rear hand to front boot touch for years, and sometimes even reach that hand past the heelside edge toward the ground. The problem is that it is easy to just bend at the waist to do this, so I can be touching the boot but the board still isn't way up on its edge. What has helped me more is to lift my inside shoulder. Lifting this shoulder upward works better to provide angulation than forcing the other shoulder down by reaching, at least for me.

[Bruce Varsava]

From my wifes experiences of always gaining too much speed, just hammer on it as soon as possible. Once she sorted that out, it was like a new sport. There is no delay as she always thought you needed to ease into it and build pressure gradually. Problem there is you also build speed. All the proper technique is good but if you are not hard on it from the start, speed will come as you point it downhill. Also riding boards with tight sidecuts can actually hinder speed control. Learned this hands on at last years ECES. I took out a 10m SL board to ride a steep run under the lift and Mr Michaud and Co were on 13 and 14s. They were having a blast and I was struggling. As soon as I pointed it downhill even without much hesitation, I was above the speed of the 10m sidecut and had to chatter back to control. The higher sidecut boards were way up on edge, in their element and riders smiling from ear to ear.

BV

[Corey]

From my wifes experiences of always gaining too much speed, just hammer on it as soon as possible.

+1 on that advice! I had similar issues at SES, Sean Martin passed on that little tip that made a world of difference. Getting that next turn started early, high, and hard really controls speed. It also helps you think about making full "C" turns instead of a lazy "s" where you're not going across or even up the fall line between turns.

For me this was a breakthrough as most local hills aren't steep enough to require much speed control, this wasn't a skill I needed to develop until then.

[queequeg]

The problem is that it is easy to just bend at the waist to do this, so I can be touching the boot but the board still isn't way up on its edge.

I think the key with this technique is you must be doing it with your hips oriented forward. If your trailing hip and hand are not coming forward and facing the direction of your turn, none of this stuff is going to help. The angulation occurs as a result of tightening your obliques on your downhill side (outside of turn radius), and stretching them on the uphill side (inside of turn radius). If your hips are not facing forward, and you touch your knees/boots - you're sitting on the toilet. The technique I was trying to describe involves initiating your turns from a very compressed/crouched body position - so if your hips aren't facing forward and you're sitting on the toilet - your ass is going to bump into the snow. Focusing on jamming your elbow into your knee rather than just your hand to your foot will help bring the hips around- it will force your rear hip to come forward.

[Jack M]

Also riding boards with tight sidecuts can actually hinder speed control. Learned this hands on at last years ECES. I took out a 10m SL board to ride a steep run under the lift and Mr Michaud and Co were on 13 and 14s. They were having a blast and I was struggling. As soon as I pointed it downhill even without much hesitation, I was above the speed of the 10m sidecut and had to chatter back to control. The higher sidecut boards were way up on edge, in their element and riders smiling from ear to ear.

BV

I hear ya buddy. I find when I'm riding my short board (158, ~10m?) if I need to control speed on steeps, I have to REALLY hammer on it to keep the speed down. And then I'm doing like a hundred 3-meter turns down the pitch, and still at quite high speed. It's a big work-out, but it can be fun.

The metal boards like my 14m board definitely can be bent into tighter turns than usual. The difference I think is they hold better at such high edge angles.

[Bruce Varsava]

I hear ya buddy. I find when I'm riding my short board (158, ~10m?) if I need to control speed on steeps, I have to REALLY hammer on it to keep the speed down.

If you are referring to a Madd 158, the sidecut as far as I can see after close inspection is: nose 7m, mid 11m, tail 9m. Add it all together and take an average I guess:)

[KingCrimson]

Close inspection? Working on a Coiler 158 are we?