Tinkler Rocketman

[Jack M]

It still seems to me that the rockered tip/tail on Pokkis's board is just a very extreme version of the nose profiles on new Coilers, SGs, Kesslers, Prior Metals.

Dude?

Look at the picture again. The board curves up right after the bindings. It's a U. It's not an extreme version of any modern snowboard with camber. This board has no camber, it has rocker.

When we ride normal boards with camber, when we tilt the board up on edge the camber immediately causes the board to be stressed and pressure to be distributed along the whole edge out to the ends of the board. On a board with rocker, the board will not be under any stress until the board is tilted up higher, at some angle where the deflection of the board caused by the tilted sidecut becomes greater than the deflection that is already built in! I'm sorry to rain on pokkis's parade but this is simply a bad idea that has already been tried. This is nothing new, and I can't just sit here and "keep it to myself" when people are calling this cool and interesting. It's not.

[JJFluff]

What is the "rocker" suppose to do for a rider exactly? What is the idea behind the design?

I find over time, as boards lose there camber, which mine do a lot because I ride older boards, I am making up for it by driving harder and weighting more at the end of each turn. This rocker idea would make me think you would have to work even harder to get the board through the turn. It would feel completely dead.

[MUD]

I think Tinkler got an order for another four-figure custom and took it, and that's that.

Wow Jack! I don't know if you have ever created anything that has your name on it, but this is a VERY rude insinuation.

It's one thing to disagree, this is another.......

[Jack M]

Wow Jack! I don't know if you have ever created anything that has your name on it, but this is a VERY rude insinuation.

It's one thing to disagree, this is another.......

I'm sorry if this is rude, I'm not trying to be rude or put anyone down. Maybe the board works on very soft hero groom. It will not work on hardpack or ice. Final answer. A rockered board is preposterous. I'd sooner ride an asym. What's next, boards without sidecut? Constant thickness? Foam cores?

In this economy if I were a board builder, I'd build anyone's design if they wanted to pay me ~$1500 or more to do so. I'm not trying to make any comment against Tinkler.

[Mike T]

Dude?

Look at the picture again. The board curves up right after the bindings. It's a U. It's not an extreme version of any modern snowboard with camber. This board has no camber, it has rocker.

You're right, I didn't look closely enough at the pix. I thought I was looking at a U with a large flat section in the middle.

When we ride normal boards with camber, when we tilt the board up on edge the camber immediately causes the board to be stressed and pressure to be distributed along the whole edge out to the ends of the board.

I don't see how camber is a necessary ingredient in getting pressure to the ends of the board. Take a board that is flat, but has sidecut, and tip it on edge, I think the same thing happens. Maybe not as quickly but it happens. If the board has a deep sidecut, I think it still happens pretty darn quickly.

FWIW, I am not a believer in "full rocker can carve well" unless I have the chance to experience it for myself. But I used to think that boards need a ton of camber to be fun and that the camber should extend all the way to the widest points of the board on both ends. Riding a Kessler and numerous Coilers where the cambered section is much shorter than effective edge has proven to me that I was wrong about that. All the Coilers I've seen have a pretty low camber compared to Prior, Madd, Donek but I've had as much if not more fun riding them. So I wonder what I am going to be wrong about next ;-)

[Jack M]

You're right, I didn't look closely enough at the pix. I thought I was looking at a U with a large flat section in the middle.

It might be flat between the feet, but that would barely matter.

I don't see how camber is a necessary ingredient in getting pressure to the ends of the board. Take a board that is flat, but has sidecut, and tip it on edge, I think the same thing happens. Maybe not as quickly but it happens. If the board has a deep sidecut, I think it still happens pretty darn quickly.

Yes, a flat board would behave as described. Camber just mechanically multiplies that effect. Rocker would reduce the effect. The board would not begin to stress (and thus distribute pressure to the ends) until it is tilted up higher.

FWIW, I am not a believer in "full rocker can carve well" unless I have the chance to experience it for myself. ... So I wonder what I am going to be wrong about next ;-)

You don't have to wonder about this, people have already been wrong about it!

Like I said, if this is supposed to be a powder board that will work on soft groom, fine. But let's not think for a second that this is an advancement in carving.

[MUD]

This is what I know, Bryan: that rockered skis and boards have been built in the past. Look Lamar and Sims Kidwell come to mind. I think G&S made one too. Nobody builds rockered skis/boards for use on piste anymore for a reason. Pokkis is simply repeating history.

OK, I have tried the "it's cool" side.... Now comes reality.

Have you ever ridden these boards? You can throw the Avalanche Kick in there also, it's rockered.

The Kidwell I had before I knew how to carve, it was a nice board though.

The Lamar Trickstick RAILED, it is a weird ride, but it is really good!

The Kick is also really good, different than the Trick stick but it railed also..

These were all ridden in Minnesota hardpack/ice.

I have a Kick and a Trickstick if you want to give them a go, but you would have to learn to carve in softies.

Just because we went away from it does not mean it was bad. They had fuel injection in 1957 you know......

[Hans]

In this economy if I were a board builder, I'd build anyone's design if they wanted to pay me ~$1500 or more to do so.

That's exactly what Mike is building, so its gonna cost you. These boards are doing a price range from Kesslers and Virus boards and the quality is at least equal. I think Jack may have a point about the boardtechnique. It's interesting what he is putting here. Could be brought with some more elegance/nuance I think, but I am not Jack. But I think that Jack is a serious kind of guy. So everybody has his own (writing)style. But in combo with the sticks and the carbon derbyplate I don't think any boardmaker did this before. Look what you pay for a Kessler with a Hangl plate or a SG board with a plate. Its the same pricerange. You pay more for a BMW or Mercedes than for a Fiat. I am a satisfied customer with my first Tinkler till so far. Lets see what this one will bring....

[trailertrash]

I have had no problem with board on any surface what i have tried untill today, i'v ebeen very happy camper with that one.

Being just mainly palying with sticks to really feel difference of more or less rocker on different surfaces.

I've been more trying to find surface where it does not work, and hope to find that one too during this season :rolleyes:

Have you tried this board on anything that resembles East Coast hardpack ice?

[Jack M]

Like I said, not trying to be rude. I'm trying to be factual and clear, and I don't want to confuse my points with any fluffy nice stuff. And I definitely am not saying anything about Tinkler, the builder is irrelevant.

MUD... please, I thought my Burton Safari railed when I got it. We know better now. And we still have fuel injection....

[Bruce Varsava]

OK heres the bottom line!!!

I'm not saying anything as I build boards for almost all involved here but keep it up as I would rather read this than build boards:)

[MUD]

MUD... please, I thought my Burton Safari railed when I got it. We know better now. And we still have fuel injection....

You missed the fuel injection thing, it went away for quite a few year, now it is all we have.......

I'll get them out, shoot some video and write up a nice review for both the Kick and the Trickstick.....

I am not saying you are wrong Jack, I an just not as sure as you I guess.

[Mike T]

Yes, a flat board would behave as described. Camber just mechanically multiplies that effect. Rocker would reduce the effect. The board would not begin to stress (and thus distribute pressure to the ends) until it is tilted up higher.

....

But let's not think for a second that this is an advancement in carving.

OK... forgetting about the rockered Tinkler for a moment... let's talk about boards whose camber stops before you went to the widest point and then slopes slowly upwards, e.g. Kessler, SG, new Coiler, new Prior Metal.

I *know* based on experience that I find these boards "easier to carve hard". Yes, they are all metal, but they've been "easier to carve hard than metal boards without this nose profile".

I am not sure I understand why I find these boards as easier to carve hard but I have a guess... and that is, you're delaying the nose's engagement by a smidgen and that makes it so that more of the edge length gets engaged at once so it hooks up in a very positive yet very stable fashion.

Like I said it's just a guess. I am sure Bruce and others actually know, and if they want to spill it, I'm all ears :)

[Hans]

It's no guess. Due to the shape and the line of the board, the initation of the turn is easier, faster, with less effort, that's what racers are seeking for and that's exactly why these boards can round the gates more easily than a 'standard' shaped board. Well easily, huh, I think I can't keep up with Jasey Jay :lol:

You can here see some drawings about the outline of KSTboards: http://www.k-snow.com/kessler/products.html

[Corey]

let's talk about boards whose camber stops before you went to the widest point and then slopes slowly upwards, e.g. Kessler, SG, new Coiler, new Prior Metal.

You can add F2 Speedsters to that list. My SL and RS boards have two noticeable kinks in their camber (right where it goes from cap to sidewall) a bit ahead of the front binding and a bit behind the rear binding, when you fully decamber the center of the board the tip and tail slightly rise off the ground.

I'm also really curious if the rockered Tinkler was done on a whim or after some testing. As Jack has pointed out, this has been tried and abandoned. That doesn't inherently mean it's bad, but we all have to wonder what's different this time.

[Jack M]

OK... forgetting about the rockered Tinkler for a moment... let's talk about boards whose camber stops before you went to the widest point and then slopes slowly upwards, e.g. Kessler, SG, new Coiler, new Prior Metal.

I *know* based on experience that I find these boards "easier to carve hard". Yes, they are all metal, but they've been "easier to carve hard than metal boards without this nose profile".

I am not sure I understand why I find these boards as easier to carve hard but I have a guess... and that is, you're delaying the nose's engagement by a smidgen and that makes it so that more of the edge length gets engaged at once so it hooks up in a very positive yet very stable fashion.

Looking at my Coiler it appears that the nose simply has a much more gradual and consistent upturn which starts further down the board than traditionally.

I learned when doing a project in engineering school on geometric modeling that in order for all the curves of a snowboard to be tangent in all dimensions, you have to stop the camber and sidecut before the widest point of the nose. (If you ponder that for a moment you'll probably say "you needed to go to engineering school to figure that out??") Then you have a blending region where the sides of the board stop curving out and start curving in, and the core stops curving down and starts curving up. IMO, by elongating that region and making the nose kick more gradual, you can more closely match the vertical curve of the nose kick to the curve created by the sidecut when it is bent. That way the nose will slice more than plow, and it won't affect the turn shape as much. This is important because the nose is actually pretty deep in the snow when the board is carving hard - well beyond the end of the "effective edge". I doubt I will ever go over the bars on my Schtubby. (knock wood)

Oh, another point regarding a previous post... for a flat board to have the same response as a cambered board, it would have to be built stiffer. A rockered board would have to be built stiffer yet, and it wouldn't even respond until you tilted it up high enough to further deflect the board.

[tex1230]

wow...just have to add a couple of comments...

1) Anyone who thinks they rail on a look trickstick is delusional. maybe the freestyle could carve (although it was very soft), but the trickstick was one step removed from a lunchtray - difficult to turn at best. (and I actually got paid to ride those boards)

2) I haVe not ridden a modern rockered board, but I have skied on Spatulas and Pontoons, which are both spectacular in deep powder, but almost scary in their lack of control on-piste

[MUD]

wow...just have to add a couple of comments...

1) Anyone who thinks they rail on a look trickstick is delusional. maybe the freestyle could carve (although it was very soft), but the trickstick was one step removed from a lunchtray - difficult to turn at best. (and I actually got paid to ride those boards)

I will show you the delusion.... Video doesn't lie. Maybe I just suck!:(

Maybe I am delusional...... Either way I will post the video. If nothing else we can laugh at it.

[Shred Gruumer]

Bruce if you are reading this. Then your not working on my X6!

[felix]

Well it's pretty clear rockered boards didn't work out great 15-20 years ago, but now materials have changed, previously unsuccessful technologies might simply work now.

If on my skis I only tune the middle 50cm of my ski edge below the Vist worldcup race plate, they still stick to ice very good, the only problem is to tighten up the turn by loading the nose, because the nose will slip away while the section under the plate still holds up.

Of course I prefer having the ski fully tuned, but it works with tuning only under your feet too.

That's a bit how I expect Pokkis' board to carve. It should still hold up nicely on ice, but moving weight back and front won't change very much.

As for drifting I think it's clear that rockered shapes simply do this more pleasantly (maybe not faster in a race but with fewer power). And of course the board will feel much shorter than it is, which is nice too. I would have gone straight for 190cm or 200cm though (adding about 20cm to normal construction for same purpose).

I actually do like Pontoons on piste too. Off piste they are not wike enough for my taste though. Gogo Duret Monstre Fats in 1m of pow....

[Pow]

Id like to see a video of this board in action so we can really determine what's going on with the reverse camber and how it initiates and responds in turning. What I can only imagine is that the response is poor and it "turns like a shorter board" simply because the tip and tail do not engage and so you have a significant amount of dead weight. I feel this board's concept could have been achieved more effectively by putting a large sidecut on a smaller board and giving it a little rocker in the nose... wait a minute, that sounds familiar:confused:

[Rob Stevens]

I thought the rocker was added to alpine boards to help with centre pivoted turns on tighter courses.

Without the tip and tail trying to dig in as aggresively, they are easier to swing at the middle, getting you to your line faster and more directly than a carve would have time to.

Cambered boards will drift, just not as predictably.

This shape is proof that course racers have much different needs (stay on line at all costs) than freecarvers whose goal is generally to try and rail everything.

[Jack M]

This shape is proof that course racers have much different needs (stay on line at all costs) than freecarvers whose goal is generally to try and rail everything.

pokkis is a racer?

[pokkis]

I'm riding on NSR also even i'm not racer, just old fart :rolleyes: who likes to experience different stuff to learn

[MUD]

pokkis is a racer?

Jaysey

Down at post #5