Shred Gruumer Posted December 22, 2008 Report Share Posted December 22, 2008 Seems as your getting a lot of press and emails.. I wont bother you with that like I do Bruce!!! ha.. sorry Bruce I lv ya as always.. I don't have anything in cleveland other than small hills and the best in Football ..bring it on! (bring in on any.. the hall of fame is in Cleveland) Go bucks.. Your welcome anytime.. Thanks for even being here... bad, good or whatever... All I can say is thanks.. And Thanks for Bruce for putting up with my Ideas and doing them.. And sometimes they work.. the X2 has just been a really fun board to ride.. and for me thats what its been about... Im to old to race, and I just ride.. thats all. thats what I do, but maybe not the rest,, Im tired. Make riding your best.. To all! Get what ya need.!!.. Its all fun and isn't that why we do it..?? Right said shred Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bordy Posted December 22, 2008 Report Share Posted December 22, 2008 Billy Billy Billy, You know I love you too but must put in my 2 cents here.The above statement makes it sound like you are riding on edge all the time. last time I went out I had to ride flat on plenty of occasions so tip/tail pressure was nice to have to make that easier and safer on the type of snow we experience the majority of time. . Its a balance of not having too much but enough to make the board perform in all situations. I have been and always will be an advocate of lower camber boards. It gives a nice balance. If you want any decent rebound energy from a board with less or no camber, you need to make it stiffer and by doing so you decrease the ability to bend it in a wider range which will limit turning capabilities. Been there, done that with lower camber. Alpine riding is different for everyone. I have seen racers who cannot even carve a turn but got the biggest cheers from many more experienced racers as they came across the finish as just getting through the course was a big success for them . You cannot compare everyone to riders of your level who have the skills to execute the "current level of alpine". Many need different designs built in to accommodate the fact they are not superhuman and maybe can only get out a handful of times per season. Maybe it should read: "Top level racers are freecarvers who have perfected the art of riding a board around sticks quickly" From my perspective the equipment a racer uses and a freecarver uses are becoming more and more different each year so eventually you would think that also considering them a different aspect of the sport would somewhat make sense Again, at your level you may find some of the boards I build , which many people have given great reviews on, too boring as you like more demanding stuff for your skills. Ummmm, didn't I see a post somewhere by one of your team where it was stated about the Bsquared and I quote: " Billy Bordy has designed a board and Prior has built it to his specs. We had a run done and believe it to be a nice version of the stubby, in which he also had a hand in laying out". About 3 years ago I started using the "current level of the sport" construction in user friendly shapes, 5 distinct board lines as of last winter anyways. The original Metal Stubbies were out at ECES 3 yrs ago. NSR -eased off race boards Monsters- big freecarve boards Classics - first gen Titanal race board designs for freecarve and rec race use Stubby- short and fun freecarve All Mountain- tweaked AM designs to suit the metal construction. Certainly something from these must sit in " current level" status. Of course most of these are just me assembling good ideas from other builders and tweaking to user friendliness. All utilize up to date technology designed for their own end use. I think your perspective is quite high end and currently I am getting old, lazy and like the easier stuff to ride a lot of times. Hey bro, no hard feelings and correct me please if I have misspoken any of the facts. BV Never any hard feelings Bruce, I think the quote is from Dave in another post, I tryed to find it to see the context. I'm not sure why the bsquared is compared to the stubby, they are different boards for sure, and the stubby is all yours... not sure why it reads otherwise nor would I want it to be considered a competitor to it, the Bsquared is just a run free ride stick with race board soul, but when I ride it there are no sticks to turn around!:D I don't disagree there is a niche for every type of board for lots of types of riders however I can not support the notion that we as a industry can support the seperation of the two. They are all alpine snowboards made for riding using alpine gear, some for race courses some for cord, at your local stomping ground. We have both seen some racers use gear that rips all over the hill and some products that can be a pain out side the race course. If the fate of the sport was left up to the guy who only ride twice a year on their Factory Prime and has a desk job the rest of the time how much would the sport progress? Perhaps it just me being me as you know... I am not knocking the need for lots of types of boards for lots of types of riders, I just get a bit twisted when the carved turn is the goal in all aspect of the sport but the skidded or feathered turn is considered the goal by some while raceing, this is just not true, all the notion that you need "stiffer" gear to free ride with and softer gear to race with is just false, its all personal preferance. Sure I want alot more out of my boards that others may not want or need, But most free ride board don't always cut it for me requardless of the builder, I ride them and just want more, that again is just me..I hope you didn't think I was singling out your free ride boards, just a freeride boards you know what I mean, the Pure Carve Guys at buttermilk need a differnt stick then the Blue ridge riders. Different snow different pitch different board. But most Free ride flexes just fold for me.... "Top level racers are freecarvers who have perfected the art of riding a board around sticks quickly" I like it! The point is that guys and gals racing are still alpine snowboarders even the ones who are trying to finish their first run ever, some times I see their level of riding misjudged by lesser educated and or experanced alpine riders. I think when the concept of rocker is aplied to PGS but even more to PSL where the board is always on edge I think it is very usable and will have a aplication used at first by thoose at the upper levels before trickling down to the masses. All the rockered board I have ridden do swim while pointed straight, they also like to spin out if not weighted properly, but they do work and are very ridable they also have some very new positive attributes like the mad pop you get while starting to spin, the ease of weighting the tip and tail, the ability to have a very controlable feather or drift turn, oh yea and they don't decamber in the hot box:). I purposley spent my afternoon on the hill asking anyone i saw with a rockered freestyle stick what they thought about the ride of there rockered freestyle stick, these are all people that ride a board for work at some level, park builders, upper level instructors, Pro riders, etc... They all had similar comments but I heard things like, "Its like Cheating" , "Best Board ever", "Where was this board ten year ago when I had a career", and so on. A long time friend and very talented rider has been on the burton Hero since last year he says its the first time he has had so much fun snowboarding in over a decade, and that says alot. I have ridden lots of stuff and the rockered stuff sure is fun. Kildy, Dude I have seen you get questioned about almost everything you have constructed From Junk in the oven at Arvids house, to double stacking ride and later bomber bindings I still remember that prior Chris inserted for your ride plates it was one of the first time he had ever done inserts and man could you tell, from soft decks (some times split in many different ways) under precambered Kildy plates to all the skinny shapes you and billy had prior make lined up at the shop to a 203 in a SL course on race day. I have been there when you strip down to a GS suit in a nastar course on exabition to try and get one more tenth, how about the technica boots and custom bindings with the lever........ Not to mention some of the classic Kildyism that are two far out there to comprehend online with out knowing you as a person. You spent like two years drinking cider vinager and tried to talk me into why i should be also.....I tried some in the kitchen of that place we lived at with Grasso and Jen I new it was silly but you said I should try it and sure enough I did, man it was gross but i tried it. I through up like three times while working at the bull moose that night. I'm not saying Rocker is the answer but it is a possible solution. Just like the cider vinager wasn't the answer.... Oh and I think Chalmers might be in the Slammer from 18 Carrot farm gone bad. him or Hodskins. I don't remember... Don't worry about your writing here, Its not english class. For years I got hammered about my writing but never about my riding, your in the same boat. Plus after i went and took a course at the local school no one noticed any how! BB Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shred Gruumer Posted December 22, 2008 Report Share Posted December 22, 2008 Thats how I know!! AS always Great. Right said Shred.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob Stevens Posted December 22, 2008 Report Share Posted December 22, 2008 The average hardbooter can no-slide carve, without a problem. One of the hardest things to learn in alpine (or softbooting) is high-performance sliding turns. My buddy Greg, a Whistler legend, calls it "Slarving" or slide-carving. Figuring out slarving usually comes on in the typical hardbooters riding life, around the time that they figure out that they might want to take their **** onto steeps or off groomed tracks. Once you get out there, you realize that you can't just lock into a sidecut carve and come out the other end. It gets apparent that you'll have to power the edge, without relying so much on edge angle, or just "tipping it over." In this situation, pressure between the feet gets more honed. You might not generate a ton of edge, but your pressure control gets so good that you can do things in tight places and on rougher surfaces you could only do before on the smooth stuff. If it's at this point you get into racing, you'll be better equipped. If you get into racing at the intermediate stage, you'll likely be pretty good at locking turns down on smooth, flatter stuff, but racecourses will throw you. Good riders are good racers. Good racers are good riders. Good riders know that a pinned sliding turn takes as much or more time to learn than carving on a tipped over snowboard. If technology comes along that enhances high performance sliding in varying terrain of varying steepness, the "Good" will probably like it. Ride lots. If that means racing, you'll get better. If that means freeriding, you'll get better. Both get you better. Time and conditioning are the great levellers. Billy... What freeride board has held up under you? You didn't rule out the possibility of a good one, I think. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tinks Posted December 22, 2008 Report Share Posted December 22, 2008 Kildy, you are so delusional and full of crap that I find it hard to dignify some of your statements but I can’t let it go and have riders think for a minute you have any credibility. By attacking me you get to associate yourself with all the good work I have done on researching, developing, proto-typing and riding systems that download the tip and tail. Take the Snow Stix arms off your K2 derby plate and then see how your design is at downloading the tip and tail. I have searched everywhere for a patent in your name as the inventor and no board patents show up. Curiously your tuning device patents show up using your name but NO BOARD PATENT! I hate to rain on your “Oh I have a patent trip”, but you don’t, and you need to stop saying it because it is a lie and a figment of your imagination. So stop making claims about this mythical patent that you can’t substantiate. Like I said before, it is kind of hard to get a patent on something that is already patented. Failure to show this mythical patent means you do not have one. There is a big difference between filing a patent, and having one go through the process of examination and have it issued. That is why you do not have a patent number. You make statements about the Snow Stix and it looks obvious that you have not read the Snow Stix patent that MUD looked up and posted here, or looked at Figure 4B. When you look at my patent you will see that my binding goes over the riser connector plate. You call yourself a designer and can’t even work out how Snow Stix work. You will not admit that you have dual Snow Stix arms attached to a K2 Trimble riser plate. You lie when you say you worked on split tail concepts before me. If you did have one when I showed you my split tip and tail in the hotel room at Mt. Bachelor in 1997 you would have pulled it out of your board bag, or as we can guess you would have said something. You weren’t even thinking of splits before you saw that board let alone using Snow Stix arms to control the splits as you are today. The Tinkler Snow Stix plate you see on the Pokkis board is mounted using the binding. It is the same plate Jasey, Fawcett, Tyler, Sigi Grabner, and many used before Salt Lake. Please don’t claim that too. I still claim I made and rode the first “slit” tail on a modern race board. Fawcett was the first to race on one. The FIS rule was made as a result of the Austrians protesting me and Fawcett at Whistler for using the tails in World Cup. A definition of snowboard was then drafted. Stop copying my concepts and claiming them as your own and move on. I will say again take the dual cambered Snow Stix barring arms that externally slide on the tip and tail OFF the K2 EPB plate that you use and call the Kildy Flex. Please stop making rude, personal, nonsensical attacks. I have enough Kildy the freak stories and comments to attack you with. Please just don’t go there anymore. Stick to the facts. Read the patent. Look at the patent drawings, then tell me I am wrong for thinking I have a legitimate right to use external cambered dampening arms and you don‘t. I work hard at my craft building boards to have you and many others here put me down for trying new things is rather disheartening. For anyone who has enjoyed riding a Burner you have Fawcett and Tinkler to thank. Do you guys really want people like me to stop. I believe I build a very technically advanced board. Note I said BUILD. I guess you guys will always have Kildy’s drawings to ride. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
www.oldsnowboards.com Posted December 22, 2008 Report Share Posted December 22, 2008 Mike, is I-84 closed to the Dalles? Can you ride Mon, Tuesday or Wed? Love to get some turns in with you. I look forward to being able to ride a "Tinkler" for not only the groomers but the deep Pow too!! Keep on bringing the goods!! Bryan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bruce Varsava Posted December 22, 2008 Report Share Posted December 22, 2008 Never any hard feelings Bruce, I think the quote is from Dave in another post, I tryed to find it to see the context. I'm not sure why the bsquared is compared to the stubby, they are different boards for sure, and the stubby is all yours... not sure why it reads otherwise nor would I want it to be considered a competitor to it, the Bsquared is just a run free ride stick with race board soul, but when I ride it there are no sticks to turn around!:D I was flattered with the quote from Dave. Not like I haven't taken ideas from others for almost every board I make, it makes progress faster and more effective. the Stub is also a fun free ride stick with race board soul as the materials are almost identical to race stuff. With the very positive feedback I get it would be surprising if similar designs didn't pop up. I don't disagree there is a niche for every type of board for lots of types of riders however I can not support the notion that we as a industry can support the seperation of the two. They are all alpine snowboards made for riding using alpine gear, some for race courses some for cord, at your local stomping ground. We have both seen some racers use gear that rips all over the hill and some products that can be a pain out side the race course. If the fate of the sport was left up to the guy who only ride twice a year on their Factory Prime and has a desk job the rest of the time how much would the sport progress? Perhaps it just me being me as you know... I didn't know there was a big separation going on? I freecarve on race gear all the time. Just don't like to see anyone disrespecting another riders style. Not that you were but since we are pretty much all using gear that is similar to a certain degree the technique seems the part that is most easily differentiated .If you want to lay your body down every carve or if you want to stay upright and angulate, its all good. I am not knocking the need for lots of types of boards for lots of types of riders, I just get a bit twisted when the carved turn is the goal in all aspect of the sport but the skidded or feathered turn is considered the goal by some while raceing, this is just not true, all the notion that you need "stiffer" gear to free ride with and softer gear to race with is just false, its all personal preferance. The gear is so different now its hard to compare anymore. For freecarve I like softer gear as I find it more versatile. Once you learn to solidly carve that blue run on a stiffer board, you can do it with much less effort on a softer board, not as exciting( unless the snow is soft and you lean forwards) but use that blue run to get to the icy black run and you'll have all the excitement you want and the softer board will do wonders:) From what I understand now, the race gear, especially tail sections are getting pretty darn stiff again. Sure I want alot more out of my boards that others may not want or need, But most free ride board don't always cut it for me requardless of the builder, I ride them and just want more, that again is just me..I hope you didn't think I was singling out your free ride boards, just a freeride boards you know what I mean, the Pure Carve Guys at buttermilk need a differnt stick then the Blue ridge riders. Different snow different pitch different board. But most Free ride flexes just fold for me.... Didn't you just say a few sentences above that needing stiffer freeride boards was false:lol: What most people don't realize is it is reeeeealy tough to make 2 boards pretty much exactly the same especially the overall stiffness. Production boards vary considerably and even when I was working with racers it took a lot of effort to get duplication process sorted out close enough for them to be happy. The techniques I developed on them, I now use for every board I build so it allows me to set the stiffness with great accuracy. Does it mean that the customer gets a board that does exactly what they want, not always but it is a great deal more accurate than no system. If there is a benchmark to work from where they have ridden one of my boards , then it is a very effective tool as the first board I do for anyone is calculated off previous data and the more data the better. This is the huge advantage of getting a properly built custom board. Since I have never built you a board, you can't really say if my design suits you or not as part of the process is asking questions and coming to conclusions about what and how to build . You no doubt have very specific needs to match your abilities so that of course would be factored in and surely a lotof the boards I build would not be to your liking. Its very personal and I try to treat it as such. I think when the concept of rocker is aplied to PGS but even more to PSL where the board is always on edge I think it is very usable and will have a aplication used at first by thoose at the upper levels before trickling down to the masses.All the rockered board I have ridden do swim while pointed straight, they also like to spin out if not weighted properly, but they do work and are very ridable they also have some very new positive attributes like the mad pop you get while starting to spin, the ease of weighting the tip and tail, the ability to have a very controlable feather or drift turn, oh yea and they don't decamber in the hot box:). I purposley spent my afternoon on the hill asking anyone i saw with a rockered freestyle stick what they thought about the ride of there rockered freestyle stick, these are all people that ride a board for work at some level, park builders, upper level instructors, Pro riders, etc... They all had similar comments but I heard things like, "Its like Cheating" , "Best Board ever", "Where was this board ten year ago when I had a career", and so on. A long time friend and very talented rider has been on the burton Hero since last year he says its the first time he has had so much fun snowboarding in over a decade, and that says alot. I have ridden lots of stuff and the rockered stuff sure is fun. I can totally see it for freestyle but part of racing is the rebound of the board for acceleration especially on flatter sections of a course. I feel that would be tough to get out of a flatter board. If I'm proven wrong, I'll buy you a beer, hell maybe even 2. BV Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MJB Posted December 22, 2008 Report Share Posted December 22, 2008 wow. what a thread. we certainly need to harness this passion to build alpine bigger (recreationally and competitively) so the builders have more $ for R & D. Anyone who has never made a mistake has never tried anything new. Albert Einstein Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Kildevaeld Posted December 22, 2008 Report Share Posted December 22, 2008 This is hilarious Tinkler but just to let you know my next snowboards are patented and I applied for them all myself with very nice lawyers you will love them, so do not get that squirrely brain of yours all worked up. As to my “TWO PIECE SNOWBOARD” Patent title, if it was abandoned or no maintenance fees where paid to maintain the patent which may be possible considering 24/7 went belly up and I have already stated I was not in control of this patent nor could give a crap about this patent and for that matter your drumstick patent, but your drum sticks and my two piece snowboard are not in the same league buddy or should I say they do not conflict with each other patents. The two Piece Snowboard was described as a bottom board having no camber at all and top board with a fixed amount of camber built in and no adjustable gayness, the top board slides along a track fastened to bottom board for the shear factor involved when placing one object on top of another object and flexing and the top piece being constructed like a second snowboard introduced camber into the camber-less bottom board which than ended up looking and acting like a one piece snowboard so in fact it was more of a construction issue than a gay after market ad-on, now how does that in any way shape or form sound like a drumstick you mount onto snowboard to adjust camber to the aftermarket snowboard, I am sure since you did not include the snowboard in your patent or did you where you patenting the snowboard as well tinkler, ya Burton tried that. Now also tell me why if things where not looking good for this patent of mine after the search done by very good and expensive lawyers do you think 24/7 would sign contracts with LL Bean and almost Salamon to sell these boards? But as far as you in either case just straight up steeling my Two Piece Snowboard design you are a “scum bag” right is there another word for someone steeling other people designs and portraying them as their own, I did not think so. As far as the split baby that was all yours if you are talking about that awesome nose split nice one patent that, but if you mean a split under feet and all the way to tip, that you can soon search for under patents with a new concept to snowboards you may have to wait oh let’s see 1 year plus 18 months minimum right Tinkler enjoy that, and if you think it is un-patentable wait till you see the concept before using that squirrely brain again. As far as you telling me to stop or you will bring out dirt on me well first off that sounds like you are scared of me telling everyone what is really going on here and secondly I take it as a total threat from a fat out of shape old bastard and you had better put your nightly night diapers on and keep dreaming tuff guy because we for sure will see each other again…then what will you say to me. You and I know what is going on so I will be the one watching you crap your pants… <O:p Keep posting Tinkler this just get better and better can’t wait till you see my next boards "off the computer" should be a total wake up call for you, because to me you seem to be right where I left you off in 1996…. LOL MAKE SOMETHING NEW BUDDY OR ARE YOU WAITING FOR SOMEONE ELSE. :1luvu:Lots of love Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bruce Varsava Posted December 22, 2008 Report Share Posted December 22, 2008 Board builders and designers UFC cagematch:boxing_sm Fin, can you get an Octagon ring for SES? I'm going out to run some stairs now with my walkman ( can't afford an Ipod) playing Eye Of The Tiger. Sorry, just a thought I couldn't keep to myself:) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hotbeans Posted December 22, 2008 Report Share Posted December 22, 2008 I love a good 'ole fashioned Hoedown! BTW, there used to be a bar in Sheridan, WY that erupted into a full on bar brawl 'bout every weekend. Ahh, good times.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bordy Posted December 22, 2008 Report Share Posted December 22, 2008 I was flattered with the quote from Dave. Not like I haven't taken ideas from others for almost every board I make, it makes progress faster and more effective. the Stub is also a fun free ride stick with race board soul as the materials are almost identical to race stuff. With the very positive feedback I get it would be surprising if similar designs didn't pop up.Sure enough..... I didn't know there was a big separation going on? I freecarve on race gear all the time. Just don't like to see anyone disrespecting another riders style. Not that you were but since we are pretty much all using gear that is similar to a certain degree the technique seems the part that is most easily differentiated .If you want to lay your body down every carve or if you want to stay upright and angulate, its all good. Thats the stoke I have been pimping since 85........Phil and I even shot size doesn't matter video years back to keep it ligit! The gear is so different now its hard to compare anymore. For freecarve I like softer gear as I find it more versatile. Once you learn to solidly carve that blue run on a stiffer board, you can do it with much less effort on a softer board, not as exciting( unless the snow is soft and you lean forwards) but use that blue run to get to the icy black run and you'll have all the excitement you want and the softer board will do wonders:) From what I understand now, the race gear, especially tail sections are getting pretty darn stiff again. Yep lots of standing on the back foot going on with the tapered tail... Didn't you just say a few sentences above that needing stiffer freeride boards was false:lol: What most people don't realize is it is reeeeealy tough to make 2 boards pretty much exactly the same especially the overall stiffness. Production boards vary considerably and even when I was working with racers it took a lot of effort to get duplication process sorted out close enough for them to be happy. The techniques I developed on them, I now use for every board I build so it allows me to set the stiffness with great accuracy. Does it mean that the customer gets a board that does exactly what they want, not always but it is a great deal more accurate than no system. If there is a benchmark to work from where they have ridden one of my boards , then it is a very effective tool as the first board I do for anyone is calculated off previous data and the more data the better. This is the huge advantage of getting a properly built custom board. Since I have never built you a board, you can't really say if my design suits you or not as part of the process is asking questions and coming to conclusions about what and how to build . You no doubt have very specific needs to match your abilities so that of course would be factored in and surely a lotof the boards I build would not be to your liking. Its very personal and I try to treat it as such. I think you just proved my attempted point with your statement about free riding on race gear, earlier in the thread Jack mentioned he needed Different(stiffer) gear to free ride with I was of course disagreeing. I can totally see it for freestyle but part of racing is the rebound of the board for acceleration especially on flatter sections of a course. I feel that would be tough to get out of a flatter board. If I'm proven wrong, I'll buy you a beer, hell maybe even 2. BV Yea But if the board rides so much better in the turns it may be worth the time in the flats, plus it is like the kessler effect, If every one is riding a Kessler then they all have the same advandages and disadvantages, If everyones board was rockered then every one whould have the same advantage or disadvandage, hence evening out the playing field. Just like some athletes travel with a softer stick for Icieer conditions i could see a athlete with a Rockered board for the steep nar courses and a cambered board for others. It could happen for sure in PSL... Fire up that eye of the tiger I just broke out the sound track from footloose and since I live in UT where Dancing is frowned upon I'm not only getting fired up but am really going against the establishment and the MAN which just motivates me more;) I cant even get a beer in this Holy state some days so I really hope Rocker makes it so I can get my drink on. B2 Damn it I tried to use the qoute thing like have been to be cool but some of my text is in the blue box with your post..... Thanks for your understanding in my lack of computer skills..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob Stevens Posted December 22, 2008 Report Share Posted December 22, 2008 What FR board you like, Bordy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
roscoe Posted December 22, 2008 Report Share Posted December 22, 2008 I've been following this thread since the beginning, great procrastination tool to get me through finals... I hadn't gotten involved until now b/c I'm way too much of a beginner to really chime in, but I do have one question.... Kildy, you say here Tinkler why again was your split board solid in center and out to the nose split same on tail oh ya because your Kildy Flex was split edge to edge in middle to avoid my patent as I instructed you how to avoid my patent, thinking you would never try such a lame idea but I now understand you will do whatever it takes to be the man… my mistake.<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /><o:p></o:p><o:p></o:p> If I piss anyone off sorry, I only dislike Tinkler and anyone in my shoes would. I'm wondering why you would explain someone how to specifically avoid your patent? Obviously, as two board designers, you can share ideas/etc, but if you don't want someone stealing your idea, why would you tell him how to avoid the patent in the first place? Maybe this is something that designers do a lot and I'm just not aware of it (b/c I'm far from being a designer)?? I'm not trying to fan the fire here or make any accusation through this question, this quote has just been bothering me for a while b/c I don't understand the reasoning behind it. Thanks! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gnat Posted December 22, 2008 Report Share Posted December 22, 2008 Bordy: drinking cider vinager and tried to talk me into why i should be also Kildy just made me drink that a couple of months ago - YUK Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gray_on_tray Posted December 22, 2008 Report Share Posted December 22, 2008 I can't believe you drank that, gnat! You have to get those boys out of the house and back on the snow. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aeronaut Posted December 22, 2008 Report Share Posted December 22, 2008 My tone is affected by the fact that I get annoyed when every year someone comes here and says "hey, why not asyms?" and a few people chime in and get excited. Argh. They are being ignorant of history and I think this distracts from the forward progression of the sport. Jack, A word here. The forward progression of the sport is driven by innovation and thinking. Some innovation consists of refining a proven design. Some consists of trying something totally different from conventional wisdom and seeing where it goes (even if it's been tried before and failed.) I can give numerous examples. Take, say, the decision to try skiing on a single piece of wood instead of two, strapping both feet to it, and turning sideways. We wouldn't have snowboarding, let alone carving, if someone didn't make that leap of faith. Progress isn't made by everyone marching lock step along a single path. It's also not made by everyone trying every possible weird variation. The best way is to apply intelligence and make changes, big or small, that should improve things. This is equally true in my professional field, science (I'm a physicist.) Some people are working way out there, and some are doing mostly the same thing as everyone else. So we get transistors, and then we figure out how to put ten, and then 10 million of them on a postage stamp wafer. This leads to the computer revolution, which helps create the internet. So here we all are, discussing carving in the BOL carving community group. I suppose the whole free software movement (GNU/Linux) kind of typifies this ideal - let everyone play around with stuff, and the best ideas will win out. Don't let Micro$oft decide what the best approach to something is, let the market decide. Personally, I'm delighted that Bruce V is out there making his boards, Sean Martin is making boards, and Mike Tinkler is out there making something radically different. You're free to buy and ride whichever ones you want. Vive la difference (slight misquoting, but sums up the right idea.) Regards, Martin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike T Posted December 22, 2008 Report Share Posted December 22, 2008 Definitely been enjoying reading this thread! I can't say that anyone has convinced me that I have to try a rockered board though. I saw a lof of rockered fatty skis this past Saturday at Bachelor. Everyone I asked was on them for one reason only: Pow. FWIW. I am however very much enjoying a quiver that is mostly either "toned down race boards" or has some race-inspired features. Except for rock boards and powder gear my quiver has completely turned over in the past two years, and it's pretty much all metallic and softer now. I don't think it's a coincidence that my riding has improved quite a bit, after having levelled off the previous two seasons. I got on a glass SL board yesterday and it felt like it wasn't even bending compared to my newer softer stuff! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zone Posted December 22, 2008 Report Share Posted December 22, 2008 Just to chime in. Really enjoy this long discussion too. Nothing to contribute to the camber issue cause never tried it. You could have quoted Aeronaut 5yrs ago with EC, and it was a pain in the neck then (and still even now) to say it's OK to EC and try something different. I also give them credit for keep on going against mainstream. I like it when I try something new and unusual. Being an Aquarian helps. Cheers and have a good Xmas everyone. Jack,A word here. The forward progression of the sport is driven by innovation and thinking. Some innovation consists of refining a proven design. Some consists of trying something totally different from conventional wisdom and seeing where it goes. I can give numerous examples. Take, say, the decision to try skiing on a single piece of wood instead of two, strapping both feet to it, and turning sideways. We wouldn't have snowboarding, let alone carving, if someone didn't make that leap of faith. Progress isn't made by everyone marching lock step along a single path. It's also not made by everyone trying every possible weird variation. The best way is to apply intelligence and make changes, big or small, that should improve things. This is equally true in my professional field, science (I'm a physicist.) Some people are working way out there, and some are doing mostly the same thing as everyone else. So we get transistors, and then we figure out how to put ten, and then 10 million of them on a postage stamp wafer. This leads to the computer revolution, which helps create the internet. So here we all are, discussing carving in the BOL carving community group. I suppose the whole free software movement (GNU/Linux) kind of typifies this ideal - let everyone play around with stuff, and the best ideas will win out. Don't let Micro$oft decide what the best approach to something is, let the market decide. Personally, I'm delighted that Bruce V is out there making his boards, and Mike Tinkler is out there making something radically different. You're free to buy and ride whichever ones you want. Vive la difference (slight misquoting, but sums up the right idea.) Regards, Martin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack M Posted December 22, 2008 Report Share Posted December 22, 2008 Bordy, Great to have you back. I think you're misunderstanding my point about racing/freecarving. I'm in total agreement with you that the vast majority of racers at your level and above are master freecarvers. That's not my argument. My point is the equipment for racing and freecarving can be different. If it weren't, we'd all be riding GS or SL boards with 10 pound hangl/vist plates on top. No thanks. Some of the best alpine boards I've ever ridden are 170cm/14m/21cm, and 171cm/11.2m/19.5cm. How would you classify those? They would be useless for serious racing. A freecarver's review of this rockered Tinkler would be completely valid and useful. So would a racer's. But just one or the other wouldn't tell the whole story. If you're worried about the alpine industry splitting, that ship has sailed my friend. It split in about 1991, when Burton split their M line into the PJ and the M. Other companies made similar splits around then or earlier. I think BV and other people in this thread have sufficiently made the case that indeed racing and freecarving are different. Kildy summed it up nicely. Freecarvers avoid ruts. MUD, Ahem. I was not trying to attack Tinkler's integrity, and I don't believe I did. I did not know it was his design. I thought it was a random custom, not a researched design. I'm still not going to take anyone's word that it works on hardpack. I'd like to see for myself. YYZ, I know Hot (and others) made h-lam boards. That was the joke. What's old is new. aeronaut, The point was, asyms have been tried, and rocker has been tried. I don't think re-trying them with new materials is time well spent, if the goal is on-piste carving (which the OP said). all, I regret that my tone has been less than polite. I started out politely, but didn't get an answer. Would we still be reading this now, 250 posts later, if I had been? I think questioning this design would have ruffled some feathers regardless. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
James Ong Posted December 22, 2008 Report Share Posted December 22, 2008 Jack,A word here. The forward progression of the sport is driven by innovation and thinking. Some innovation consists of refining a proven design. Some consists of trying something totally different from conventional wisdom and seeing where it goes. I can give numerous examples. Take, say, the decision to try skiing on a single piece of wood instead of two, strapping both feet to it, and turning sideways. We wouldn't have snowboarding, let alone carving, if someone didn't make that leap of faith. Progress isn't made by everyone marching lock step along a single path. It's also not made by everyone trying every possible weird variation. The best way is to apply intelligence and make changes, big or small, that should improve things. This is equally true in my professional field, science (I'm a physicist.) Some people are working way out there, and some are doing mostly the same thing as everyone else. So we get transistors, and then we figure out how to put ten, and then 10 million of them on a postage stamp wafer. This leads to the computer revolution, which helps create the internet. So here we all are, discussing carving in the BOL carving community group. I suppose the whole free software movement (GNU/Linux) kind of typifies this ideal - let everyone play around with stuff, and the best ideas will win out. Don't let Micro$oft decide what the best approach to something is, let the market decide. Personally, I'm delighted that Bruce V is out there making his boards, Sean Martin is making boards, and Mike Tinkler is out there making something radically different. You're free to buy and ride whichever ones you want. Vive la difference (slight misquoting, but sums up the right idea.) Regards, Martin Things about BOL i KNOW to be true: 1.If you deviate from the acceptable riding techniques ( tech articles) you will be flamed . Seems like when these commandments were handed down from heaven they decided this was it and nothing else needs to be discussed. Oh yeah apparently goes for board design too. 2.Everyone will be gung-ho for whatever board they happen to be on, it's human nature and Pokkis should be commended for sharing information. How many times has Jack mentioned his totally cool M spec schtubby in the last 3 months 3.Somewhere in every controversial thread SOMEONE:lol: will say " well how does that board, technique, or whatever work in the frozen east coast tundra? These same people who don't race btw will argue till blue in the face that racing on ICY (read east coast) and rutted courses is different somehow from "real " carving. Without a clock all that cool technically correct body position just ends up being dare i say.... ice skating? Too much egotistical chest thumping methinks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack M Posted December 22, 2008 Report Share Posted December 22, 2008 Things about BOL i KNOW to be true:1.If you deviate from the acceptable riding techniques ( tech articles) you will be flamed . Seems like when these commandments were handed down from heaven they decided this was it and nothing else needs to be discussed. Oh yeah apparently goes for board design too. Whatever. The EC site used to have a picture of the technique I like with a big red "X" through it. For a long time now I have been saying EC is great as long as you know the basics first, and that it's not the path to ultimate edge grip on ice. That's all. seen on bumpersticker: "Howcome so-called 'open-minded' people never see it my way?" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tinks Posted December 22, 2008 Report Share Posted December 22, 2008 seen on bumpersticker: "Howcome so-called 'open-minded' people never see it my way?" Jack, you finally put a smile on my face. :) I love your bumper sticker quote! Thanks. Tinks Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack M Posted December 22, 2008 Report Share Posted December 22, 2008 Jack, you finally put a smile on my face. :) I love your bumper sticker quote! Thanks.Tinks Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shred Gruumer Posted December 22, 2008 Report Share Posted December 22, 2008 Advice is free: The right answer will cost plenty. Everyone is entitled to my opinion If at first you don't succeed, then skydiving is not for you !!! Never argue with an idiot, they drag you down to their level and beat you with experience. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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