toe and heel lift...

[ncermak]

When riding flat bindings, you need to be in the neutral (reference) stance, with no twist in the upper body to keep the board from twisting.

As you twist the upper body into the fall line, the rear heel will lift (as the back knee bends more, and the front knee straightens out more), along with (however less noticable) a lifting of the front toe. When strapped into to binding, These pressures will put twist into the board. By building the lift into the bindings, the rider can assume that same postion, while taking the twist out of the board.

AASI is promoting riding in the referece stance, utilizing counterroatation and board twist as needed, allowing a rider to have maximum range of motion available for corrections and adjustments requiring upper body seperation. another advantage of riding flat (toe to heel) is the knees and ankles will flex equally, allowing better pressure control along the edge of the board.

These points are particularly applicable for freeride/freestyle riding (as in using the CATEK Freeride), However should also be considered and discussed among the alpine set as well.

[ncermak]

There are already some replies to this on the CATEK forum....

[Jack M]

Assuming the AASI is talking about softboots (pretty safe bet, eh?), I believe it is not possible to significantly torque the board simply by turning your upper body into the fall line while wearing softboots. Or for that matter, doing anything else you'd normally do while riding in softboots. Even in hardboots, it takes a deliberate, unnatural effort to deform the board with your legs while riding it.

Putting heel lift and toe lift in your bindings is a good thing because it makes your stance more natural, and it relieves resistence to your effort to face forward. It <i>might</i> relieve some stress on the board, but very little - a barely significant amount in hardboots, and no appreciable amount in softboots. (imo, I have no data)

The idea that a rider can somehow manipulate the board to their benefit by moving their knees around is a farce. It is an old concept that Burton tried to capitalize on with their "rider responsive flex" design in the early 90's. You won't find them talking about that anymore. They thought that people like Craig Kelly and Kieth Wallace were making their boards carve tighter by jamming their knees together, which is a physical impossibility. Even if you could warp the board with your knees, it would only reduce the board's ability to perform as designed.

-Jack

[Guest james27]

Jack said....

"The idea that a rider can somehow manipulate the board to their benefit by moving their knees around is a farce"

1. When I move my front knee towards the center of the board or towards the nose of the board, the nose moves up and down. Almost like it's bending. While I do agree that moving your knees together while "riding the board as it's designed" isn't a good idea, it does do something. By bringing your knees together in plates or straps, you are essentially taking pressure off the forward and back thirds of the edge. It's better to focus on riding more of a cowboy stance, with your knees apart and it helps keep pressure on the whole edge. Also, on quick turns, I find it easier to drive my front knee towards the nose to put pressure on it at the start of a turn than to move my hips forward. For longer, GS style turns, I'll move my hips forward. I will drive my front knee towards the center of my board at the finish just to make the front part of the edge release and sort of dive into the next turn.

2. When I move my front knee towards the toe edge the front half of the heelside edge lifts off the snow. The same(but opposite edge) happens when driving my knee to the heel edge. In soft boots, moving your knee to heelside is more effective because you have the highback to push your calf against. Going to toeside, you have your heel strap and tongue of your boot to push against(neither will be as stiff as a highback).

"I believe it is not possible to significantly torque the board simply by turning your upper body into the fall line while wearing softboots"

I agree with this, turning your hip and upperbody is not an effective way to twinst the board. In harboots it is a little more effective because of the super stiff boot. In softboots (or standing at your desk and twisting your hips and shoulders) your back heel does not necessarily rise off the floor. But, if your back heel isn't rising up, your back ankle has to be closing(unless your in hardboots, and the ankle is essentially immobilized unless you are using your body weight to flex the boot, which is why turning your hips will be more effective to twist the board in an alpine setup). Once you turn your hip enough, you'll run out of range of motion in your ankle and your heel will have to lift. Also, your front toes don't have to lift off becuase your front ankle opens to keep them on the ground. So, your right that twisting your hips won't necessarily twint the board. BUT, in assuming that stance, you are limiting range of motion in your ankles( unless you use the cants in your catek freerides). In my opinion, I don't see why you would adopt a stance that inhibits range of motion.

James

PS - Enough with the AASI jokes, the guys know their stuff and will talk alpine anyone that want's to. They don't ride alpine equipment becuase they appreciate the versatility of softboots, or at least that's what they told me. But they what do I know, I've only been snowboarding a few years and I'm not weighed down by all that old school baggage.

[Guest AlpentalRider]

I'd have to agree with point 2 above. I have been using the knee tuck technique for years in softboot setup (on rear knee mostly) to aid in heelside turn initiation and edge hold. This technique is actually part of the French Style of turn initiation.

The "torque" that you get from tucking the rear knee behind the front ends up translating to your rear foot flexing the center of the board more, envoking a tighter and harder turn. So although it doesn't really torque the board as may have been described, it does do a good job of getting the rider's feet to more effectively flex the board on edge.

I also agree with the whole upper-body comments made above. You would have to twist your upper body so much to get a net effect, that you would be totally over-rotated and unbalanced.

I have never believed in the whole over-rotation concept that others like to use to turn, but to each their own. There's more then one way to turn a board... what works for you may not work for someone else (hence the french vs swiss techniques, push-over, push-under, push-through, etc.)

[Jack M]

Originally posted by AlpentalRider

The "torque" that you get from tucking the rear knee behind the front ends up translating to your rear foot flexing the center of the board more, envoking a tighter and harder turn.

Physically impossible. Read this and this.

[Guest AlpentalRider]

I don't think we are speaking about the same thing here. I'm not saying that tucking your knee is going to magically change the radius that your snowboard is capable of doing. Nor am I suggesting that you should have both knees together (sounds very uncomfortable to me).

I am stating that if you aim your rear knee behind your front one (towards the heelside edge), you will be able to initiate a turn much better then if you pointed the rear knee towards toeside (which is the natural position at rest).

Every teacher of the French technique states this and it can easily be verified on the hill. People with good technique do this intrinsically without even knowing.

Your own link references it:

"When carving at high speed on steeper or variable terrain, we want our center of mass to be moving smoothly and quietly along a consistent path for maximal stability. This means maintaining a quiet upper body and making the turn initiation from the waist down, primarily with the knees. On a toe side carve, this translates to a slight outward movement of the rear knee, towards the inside of the turn. On a heel side carve, the turn initiation becomes a slight outward and forward movement of the front knee, towards the inside of the turn. This helps get the center of mass forward on the board at the beginning of the turn to engage the nose into the carve. It ensures that the entire edge is utilized, not just the tail"

Granted it should be subtle movement and not a full on try and get the knee in a specific spot. But just performing that motion helps immediately put the board on edge and creates body position which is stable and compact.

But now after rereading your post, i guess technically it doesn't increase edgehold. What it does do is help put your body in proper alignment for optimal edgehold.

[Guest AlpentalRider]

I also want to clarify that I'm not some sort of instructor or anything. From your articles and posts, it's obvious you know your stuff and the articles you provided were very informational.

All my ideas are from what I've learned from others, and things I have read. If someone else comes along and can show me a better way, or point out a fallacy, I'll gladly learn from them and add it to memory.

[Jack M]

I thought you were saying that forcing your knees together would change the radius of the carve by bending the board more (which we all should know is impossible). That's how I read your post that I quoted above.

Otherwise, yes it seems we agree!

Also, I should clarify that when I said:

"The idea that a rider can somehow manipulate the board to their benefit by moving their knees around is a farce" - I was talking about the myth that you can somehow deform the board in such a way as to improve the carve. Like by jamming your knees together or forcing them apart or whatever. I've even heard it suggested that you can twist the board so much that you can start carving the nose of your downhill edge before the tail of your uphill edge stops carving. Simply untrue.

The motions we make with our knees are mainly done to tip the board up on edge faster, and to get our c.o.g. in the right spot.

-Jack

[Guest Pre School Rider]

Jack,hold on a sec here.. I've seen it tracks,and felt it underfoot,where I've created enough 'twist' in a board that I am indeed,for a Very Fleeting moment,actually using diagonally opposite edges of a board.Arguably,it's 'between turns',nothing that can be even partly be imagined as two different edge-sets within one turn,although the result Does make for a seemless blend from one turn to the next. I first noticed this phenomena using plate bindings on my Barfoot Ravine back in the '91-'92 season.I took some pretty nifty head-bangin' slams trying to figure it out,too. So,what I'm saying occurs here is that I can make an edge-change happen quickly enough that I can leave two edge marks that overlap,one form the old turn,and one from the new turn.Occasionally,there's even a distinct diagonal 'hump',so it's not just from being unweighted,the twist occurs quickly enough,and the edge angle changes far enough that there is No Flat Spot,even though the board remains on the snow. A good coach once said to me,while riding on the Palmer chair at Hood "Look there,see those tracks?They're Yours,and no matter what you Thought you were doing,remember,Tracks Don't Lie! You can always look back,and See if you did what you thought you're doing." Yup...

[Jack M]

Eric, you're da man, but I'm <i>very</i> skeptical. Just because your tracks overlap doesn't mean that you were carving both edges simultaneously. It just means that you changed edges very quickly - quickly enought that you started carving your downhill edge before your board moved all the way beyond your uphill track. I'd say most advanced carvers leave overlapping tracks. For your tracks NOT to overlap, you'd have to be riding flat for enough time for your board to clear your uphill track.

Of course, if you've got pics of your board with both edges carving, I'll eat my hat.

[Neuffy]

*Neuffy runs to photoshop....

Even a moderate carver will produce overlapping tracks, sorta like this, but with curves:

up

-------------------------

. . . . . . . -----------------------

. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . down

It's pretty damn hard not to produce overlapping carve lines IMO.

[k_t]

What I have noticed is when I carve with the same intensity on my Coiler PR (with the torsion plus lamination) the over lap is much less than with any of my burners (split tails) or other boards (longer and shorter). This tells me that when a dynamic quick change is made that in fact the over lap could in part be due to board twist.

I know what you are thinking ................. The Coiler may be slower edge to edge........... I don't think so. Also you have to admit that the board is very much un-weighted during the transition.

Quick change or twist? May be a little of both. Who cares any way, the tracks are pretty darn cool.

[Guest james27]

I agree with PSR and have seen the same thing in my tracks, particularly in my softer freeride board. I noticed it when I tried riding a flat board across the hill for an instant in the middle of changing edges rather than "snapping" the board edge to edge. What I saw going up the chair(at my home mountain we are lucky enough to have a chair run right along side our best carving run) at the transition was a flat board track (slightly longer than a board length) with the front heelside edge digging in and the rear toeside edge dug in. The rear heelside and front toeside were almost non-existant. I was rather shocked too. Now, is this better than snapping the board into the next turn and setting the whole edge at once? I don't think so, just a different feel and style.

Also, ever try twisting the board in the middle of a carve? When carving (say on toeside) and I'm about half way through my turn, if I twist the board so the rear of the board is at a higher edge angle than the front, the radius of the turn will tighten. I noticed it immediately, as did the rest of the group in the clinic. Now I agree that the board being able to still carve while the front and back are at two different edge angles seems to be impossible but I know what I felt. The only thing I can think of is that as your turn progresses, pressure on the edge slides back toward the tail, so the front is just along for the ride. I don't know, maybe PSR can shed some light on this.

James

[Jack M]

I'm quite convinced in my own argument above (surprise surprise!). At this point I'll need to see a picture of your board looking like a mobius strip with your front downhill edge in the snow, your front uphill edge in the air, and your rear uphill edge in the snow, and your rear downhill edge in the air. But I don't think we can argue this further in words.

-Jack

[Guest james27]

Next season I'll make it a point of getting some photos.

[Jack M]

Originally posted by james27

Also, ever try twisting the board in the middle of a carve? When carving (say on toeside) and I'm about half way through my turn, if I twist the board so the rear of the board is at a higher edge angle than the front, the radius of the turn will tighten. I noticed it immediately, as did the rest of the group in the clinic. Now I agree that the board being able to still carve while the front and back are at two different edge angles seems to be impossible but I know what I felt. The only thing I can think of is that as your turn progresses, pressure on the edge slides back toward the tail, so the front is just along for the ride.

Now that IS entirely possible, because as you say the front of the board is just along for the ride. So the question becomes why do this? Aside from it being a fun little experiment, I can think of no practical application. You're basically sawing your effective edge in half. A better thing to do would be to angulate your body more, tip the whole board up higher, and carve the whole edge.

-Jack

[Guest Pre School Rider]

O.K.,I agree with Jack that words are not the best conveance here,so,Jack,if you've got a copy of ECES 02,look for my Tanker on Sunbowl (Silver top/orange bottom).You'll see one or two turns where the board twist very actively,though maybe Not doing the two-edges-at-once-in-a-carve,but for a glimmer,on opposite edges nose-to-tail. James27,I've done that exact move,right past an Examiner + group,while being low enough to glide my hip(heelside) on the snow. After getting the board 'hooked up',I simply poked my front toes down while pulling the rear toes up.The result was what that Examiner said was "a nice fall + recovery",but I actually made the board go straight,inline with the fall-line,then,by pulling my front toes up again,hooked it back up to complete my carve.So,using active torsional twist mid-turn does change things considerably. I now a variation of that movement pool when in Softies on a BX board (lesser binding angles,down to the mid 30's) where the extra toe/heel leverage can be played with while not loosing the benefits of high-angle fore+aft control.Again,the change in turn shape,while on edge,is dramatic.The cool thing is figuring out how playing with the fore-aft balancing changes your ability to stay ahead of,along with,or catching up to,your board as it carves.There's a magic area,when the board is no longer quite uphill of you,but before it's into the bottom of a turn,where the possibilities are plentiful,and changing the arc is easy to do by playing with independant amounts of edge-tipping from each foot. I'll leave it at that....

[Guest junecarver]

ummm...duh! bringing the rear knee forward lifts the back of the board, bending it. i demonstrate this all the time when helping people learn to carve.

[Jack M]

Originally posted by junecarver

ummm...duh! bringing the rear knee forward lifts the back of the board, bending it.

okay... and what does that do for you?

(please say that it tightens the carve radius. go ahead. I dare you. :D )

[Neuffy]

helps to push the front of the board into the snow, changing edges?

[Guest junecarver]

Originally posted by Jack Michaud

okay... and what does that do for you?

(please say that it tightens the carve radius. go ahead. I dare you. :D )

bends the board, making an arc so you can carve...okay, just to entertain you i will say that it tightens the turn radius...compared to if the board were flat :)

it's more pronounced with a very forward stance, which also reduces twisting of the board. twisting actually lengthens the turn radius, i believe. from my observations people tend to twist the board more on the heelside, rather than leaning forward and/or bending it, which can explain some problems people have with the heelside carve. sound reasonable?

[Guest junecarver]

Originally posted by Pre School Rider

.Again,the change in turn shape,while on edge,is dramatic.The cool thing is figuring out how playing with the fore-aft balancing changes your ability to stay ahead of,along with,or catching up to,your board as it carves.There's a magic area,when the board is no longer quite uphill of you,but before it's into the bottom of a turn,where the possibilities are plentiful,and changing the arc is easy to do by playing with independant amounts of edge-tipping from each foot. I'll leave it at that....

i guess thats what i'm talking about! beautiful description, by the way. i love that feeling of falling in front of the board and flying for a moment before it catches up...no twisting for me though...i usually load the tail as the board comes through and let it bounce into the air and into the next turn...there's usually a couple feet of clean snow beetween my trenches...:D

[Jack M]

Originally posted by junecarver

bends the board, making an arc so you can carve

How do your two feet bend the entire board into a smooth arc? It can't be done. All you could possibly do is put a kink in the middle of the board, which would be bad for carving.

[Guest junecarver]

i don't know about a kink, my boards are pretty even flexing, but i think i understand what you are saying...just lifting your leg or bringing the knee forward won't do much. you have to lean forward! on a soft board you can lean way out over the front, making a nice long beautiful arc up and behind you. at 150 pounds i barely bend my hot like that, though....