lonerider Posted April 12, 2004 Report Share Posted April 12, 2004 Based on the previous few threads, looks like everyone is bored and so looks like a good time to ask a "newbie" question. I currently ride TD1s with 3* plates for front and back with 53/48 angles. I have been having trouble getting my weight more forward and was told that a I should consider a 6* plate in back. What exactly are my options for heel/toe lift? How would *3/6* compare to 0*/6* or even 0*/3* in terms of front/back lift? Also what about canting? When I stand up straight, my legs look like () and my feet look liked this \/ (duck footed). Do I need to cant my boots outward or inward? It seems like on TDs (either one) I can only get inward cant to varying degrees (if I want toe/heel lift) while since my shins opint outwards, my canting would need to be a little outwards as well. What settings do other bowlegged duck-foot people use? Thanks for the help. Extra Info: I'm currently riding a pair of TD1s and want to upgrade to either TD2 or Cateks, but am trying to decide which to get - I know the TD2's are a bit cushier, but I was wondering if I "need" the more varied adjustability of the Cateks. I'm still searching for a good stance settings - so maybe if you could answer what type of stance/cant/lift I need, I'll know what binding to get. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lonerider Posted April 12, 2004 Author Report Share Posted April 12, 2004 Originally posted by yyzcanuck Bruce Varsava wrote an article for Snowboard Canada magazine a few years ago... you can find it at the link below: http://www.yyzcanuck.com/tech.htm click on "You can if you Cant" From the article-Bow legged: You suffer the most, if you can put 2 or 3 fingers between your knees when you're ankles are touching you will need 1-2 degrees of negative canting. Leave one binding flat and cant the other one outward. Thanks! That article was very helpful. I actually have a 4 fingers of space betwen my knees... so I guess I need some outward cant. I guess I need Cateks then... oh wait, I were to rotate the cant disk counter-clockwise on a pair of TD2 bindings, I would get outward cant, right? (for a regular rider). Oh and which leg is better for canting? Maybe the front foot so I get a more forward weighted stance? So I would like have the "other" disk rotated to match my binding so I get all heellift and no cant. Does this make sense to anyone? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack M Posted April 12, 2004 Report Share Posted April 12, 2004 The TD2s can be set up for outward cant, very easily. In my (biased) opinion, TD2s are easier to experiment with because all settings are easily quantifiable and repeatable. There was another thread comparing the two bindings here. -Jack Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lonerider Posted April 12, 2004 Author Report Share Posted April 12, 2004 Originally posted by Jack Michaud The TD2s can be set up for outward cant, very easily. In my (biased) opinion, TD2s are easier to experiment with because all settings are easily quantifiable and repeatable. There was another thread comparing the two bindings here. -Jack Yea, I would like to be able to systematically adjust my bindings by just incrementing the numbers... although the tradeoff of course is that I'm unable to independently set my lift and cant. If I need 2 degrees of cant, then for a 3 degree plate I can only have 1 degree of lift... guess I should go for a 6* plate then. Would *2 outward cant and 4* lift be too much? So I'm currently using 3* plates... but I'm having trouble get more weight on my front foot. Should I go 0*/3* or 0*/ 6*, or even 3*/6* (think I'm going with the TD2s). Oh... and would it be possible to get longer screws... I will need them for my new MADD board coming out. Will longer screws work with a regular deck? What's the diff between 4mm and 5mm? Is that how deep the keyhole is, or is that the hex key width? Thanks... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack M Posted April 12, 2004 Report Share Posted April 12, 2004 Originally posted by lonerider although the tradeoff of course is that I'm unable to independently set my lift and cant. If I need 2 degrees of cant, then for a 3 degree plate I can only have 1 degree of lift... That's not how it works. There is a matrix of some of the possible combinations here: http://www.bomberonline.com/JackM/td2matrix.xls Just reading from the matrix, at say 55 degrees on the 3 degree disc, you could have 1.93 degrees of outward cant AND 2.3 degrees of lift. To determine your exact cant and lift angles at your binding angles, use this formula: cant = (disc slope) * sin(disc angle - binding angle) lift = (disc slope) * cos(disc angle - binding angle) True, the adjustments are not independant. However for smallish changes in binding angle or disc angle, your lift angle does not change very much at all. I would say 2 degrees of outward cant is a lot, but your legs may very well need it. Even then you're only losing 0.7 degrees of lift. So I'm currently using 3* plates... but I'm having trouble get more weight on my front foot. Should I go 0*/3* or 0*/ 6*, or even 3*/6* (think I'm going with the TD2s). Nearly impossible to say. The 3/6 combo will simply allow you to use a wider stance than the 0/6. Personally If I wanted a change, I would probably go for 3/6 just because I use 3/3 now and I know I like some toe lift on the front foot. Oh... and would it be possible to get longer screws... I will need them for my new MADD board coming out. Will longer screws work with a regular deck? What's the diff between 4mm and 5mm is that how deep the slot is, or is that the hex key width? The way someone else was using the measurements 4mm and 5mm, he was talking about hex key width. You can get longer screws either from your hardware store or Bomber. You should always find out for certain what length screws should be used with your board. You can assume that the standard screws provided with Bomber bindings will work in "normal" boards, which the Madd is not because of the extra topsheet. -Jack Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lonerider Posted April 12, 2004 Author Report Share Posted April 12, 2004 Originally posted by Jack Michaud That's not how it works. There is a matrix of some of the possible combinations here: http://www.bomberonline.com/JackM/td2matrix.xls Just reading from the matrix, at say 55 degrees on the 3 degree disc, you could have 1.93 degrees of outward cant AND 2.3 degrees of lift. To determine your exact cant and lift angles at your binding angles, use this formula: cant = (disc slope) * sin(disc angle - binding angle) lift = (disc slope) * cos(disc angle - binding angle) True, the adjustments are not independant. However for smallish changes in binding angle or disc angle, your lift angle does not change very much at all. I would say 2 degrees of outward cant is a lot, but your legs may very well need it. Even then you're only losing 0.7 degrees of lift. Oh, I see - yea it looks like rotating the disk to give me some cant will not affect my lift by that much. Nearly impossible to say. The 3/6 combo will simply allow you to use a wider stance than the 0/6. Personally If I wanted a change, I would probably go for 3/6 just because I use 3/3 now and I know I like some toe lift on the front foot. Sounds good. Having toe lift gives you a bit more leverage, correct? The way someone else was using the measurements 4mm and 5mm, he was talking about hex key width. You can get longer screws either from your hardware store or Bomber. You should always find out for certain what length screws should be used with your board. You can assume that the standard screws provided with Bomber bindings will work in "normal" boards, which the Madd is not because of the extra topsheet. Oh, my question was whether I would be able to use the longer screws that I will be getting for the MADD board on a regular board, or will they be too deep. I guess I should just be getting two sets of screws (or even two sets of base plates) anyways. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Houghton Posted April 12, 2004 Report Share Posted April 12, 2004 Uhhh - why not try moving the stance forward? Much easier than mucking around with all this stuff. Anyway 6 degrees is too much in my opinion. But then what do I know, I use Cateks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lonerider Posted April 12, 2004 Author Report Share Posted April 12, 2004 Originally posted by Chris Houghton Uhhh - why not try moving the stance forward? Much easier than mucking around with all this stuff. Anyway 6 degrees is too much in my opinion. But then what do I know, I use Cateks. Is that the same? I mean moving the stance forward will put more of my total body weight towards the front of the board, but that won't give me a more" forward weighted stance" because I still will have my weight distributed say 35/65% on the front and back bindings... where as if I had more heel lift - then I would end up with a more 50/50 evenly weighted stance. Does this make sense? I definitely know that I'm having trouble getting much weight on my front foot even when I try to throw my weight forward onto my front foot. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Pre School Rider Posted April 12, 2004 Report Share Posted April 12, 2004 LoneRider,try this with your current bindings. Simply turn the lower piece of your TD 1 Rear binding 90*,so that the slant puts your foot low-at-the-toes,but with no real 'cant' fore/aft. Do the 'Carpet Ride' thing in front of a full-length mirror.I'll bet it'll feel and look better than where you're at now. As for the TD-2 or Catek query,um,toss a coin? ;) They are both superb bindings,so either way you won't be at a loss. :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lonerider Posted April 12, 2004 Author Report Share Posted April 12, 2004 Originally posted by Pre School Rider LoneRider,try this with your current bindings. Simply turn the lower piece of your TD 1 Rear binding 90*,so that the slant puts your foot low-at-the-toes,but with no real 'cant' fore/aft. Do the 'Carpet Ride' thing in front of a full-length mirror.I'll bet it'll feel and look better than where you're at now. As for the TD-2 or Catek query,um,toss a coin? They are both superb bindings,so either way you won't be at a loss. I remember trying to do that really early on, but failing to figure out how to do it on my Burton 3-hole pattern. Maybe with a bit more experience I can do it properly now... I also have a 4 hole pattern board to try it out with as well. I will try it out. I think I'm pretty set on getting the TD2 over the Cateks (although I might invest in a pair of Catek Freerides - despite the fact that one of my favorite things to do in softboots is ride halfpipe and rails) because: - I want to be able to repeat my cant/lift settings easily and quickly (I can survive if the angle settings are a little less exact). - I want some adjustability... but I don't need infinite adjustability - right now I have my two cants 2+2=4* in the *wrong* direction. My 25 year old knees are relatively good still (well my back knee is getting a bit achy from an old knee ACL sprain). - I'm afraid I might strip the screws on the Cateks with all my fiddling. I mean the screws on my TD1s aren't in the greatest of condition either after only a season of limited tweaking. - I want the added shock absorption of the TD2 yellow elastomer - maybe some day I'll move up to the medium purple ones. So at the moment, I think a pair of standard TD2 with 3*/6* plates is in my future. If only I could get a 4.5 degree plate:) Maybe I could try the washer trick that Baka recently had a bad experience with (except that I will use longer screws as well). Thanks for all the help everyone - esp. to PSR (since he posted on Freecarve and BOL) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zcarver Posted April 13, 2004 Report Share Posted April 13, 2004 While there are degree angle markings for the TD 1's, there is no true setting marker to set your angles. I use the screw allen hole as a marker. The Burton race plates have a small arrow pointer on the base to line up your disc. Are the TD 2's better to adjust your angles? The picture doesn't show it too well. Thanks Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lonerider Posted April 13, 2004 Author Report Share Posted April 13, 2004 Originally posted by Zcarver While there are degree angle markings for the TD 1's, there is no true setting marker to set your angles. I use the screw allen hole as a marker. The Burton race plates have a small arrow pointer on the base to line up your disc. Are the TD 2's better to adjust your angles? The picture doesn't show it too well. Thanks From the features section, I found this image on the new indexing system - which as you can see now has a small arrow pointer to the base to let you more easily eyeball the angles (angle marker are still only in 5 degree notches). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Speed Demon Posted April 13, 2004 Report Share Posted April 13, 2004 Didnt wanna start a new thread so I will just ask my question here. Im new to this and I was wondering is about a 65* angle normal for someone just starting out, becuase I know some people who say start out with lower angles but then the boots hang off the edge. If it makes any difference to tell you what my board size is and such here it is... Oxygen Proton SL149 248-195-248 mm Obviously 149 cm Ohh and I read the page about setting up my bindings and so as of now at about 65* the boots dont hang off the edge they are even when looking at it from above. Any input would be excellent, THANKS. ________ Ecigarette 123 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coldrider Posted April 13, 2004 Report Share Posted April 13, 2004 Is there a difference between addressing bowleggedness using the cuff cant on the boot or through canting the binding? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Pre School Rider Posted April 13, 2004 Report Share Posted April 13, 2004 Loneridr,yes there is a signifigant difference.The lower you stabilize the bone structure,the better off you are,hence,tilting at the binding is better,as it promotes the way your body Wants to stand.People who use excessive canting (in terms of total degrees of lift or tilt) are fooling themselves.Try walking on a slick slate roof pitched at say,10* sometime,and then try to move,quickly...Yup You'll understand that comment if you've ever shovelled rooves in New England. ;) So,I firmly believe that canting and lifts work,but are to be used "In Moderation" to get the best effect. Starting lower,like at where the feet rest on the board,just makes more sense,but that takes a patient,deliberate approach to bring things to fruition. Cants at the boot's cuff are a means to alleviate pressure issues from the ankle Up through the legs to the Hips (this also means KNEES!),as a boot becomes a lever from which you Steer and help Pressure your board as it [hopefully] Carves.Getting an alignment that dosen't create issues in dealing with the varied pressures we put on our legs while turning is what you strive for here,It's important to understand that body position stems from foot placement,and that is an Active thing in most other sports.In Snowboarding,the feet are pretty much Stuck,and the rest of the body has to figure out where to go from there.Worse,cranking good carved turn isn't a static "take a pose" kind of endeavour,but rather is a fluid combination of moves that creates a curved line in the snow at (sometimes pretty considerable!) velocity.The posture you pick WILL affect your ability to turn,or adapt to terrain,or stay upright in comfort... Make sure that you work your normal 'flex range' in any change you decide on making in your stancing,because it Has To Work in the whole of your movement pool,or you'll fall down somewhere. So think of binding canting as a rough adjustment,one that you'll get right (when it feels right) at about 80% efficiency.Using cuff canting will take up another %5-%10 of that,so it's the 'fine tune' button here.To deal with the last of the %, look at your footbeds,but carefully and with a bit of patience. As I said over on Freecarve,it's rare that a rider truly gets it 'dialed in' perfectly,and it takes awhile to do this. I'd guess that only a very riders even ever seriously delve into this,but those that know,know.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lonerider Posted April 13, 2004 Author Report Share Posted April 13, 2004 Originally posted by Pre School Rider Loneridr,yes there is a signifigant difference.The lower you stabilize the bone structure,the better off you are,hence,tilting at the binding is better,as it promotes the way your body Wants to stand.People who use excessive canting (in terms of total degrees of lift or tilt) are fooling themselves.Try walking on a slick slate roof pitched at say,10* sometime,and then try to move,quickly...Yup You'll understand that comment if you've ever shovelled rooves in New England. ;) So,I firmly believe that canting and lifts work,but are to be used "In Moderation" to get the best effect. Starting lower,like at where the feet rest on the board,just makes more sense,but that takes a patient,deliberate approach to bring things to fruition. Cants at the boot's cuff are a means to alleviate pressure issues from the ankle Up through the legs to the Hips (this also means KNEES!),as a boot becomes a lever from which you Steer and help Pressure your board as it [hopefully] Carves.Getting an alignment that dosen't create issues in dealing with the varied pressures we put on our legs while turning is what you strive for here,It's important to understand that body position stems from foot placement,and that is an Active thing in most other sports.In Snowboarding,the feet are pretty much Stuck,and the rest of the body has to figure out where to go from there.Worse,cranking good carved turn isn't a static "take a pose" kind of endeavour,but rather is a fluid combination of moves that creates a curved line in the snow at (sometimes pretty considerable!) velocity.The posture you pick WILL affect your ability to turn,or adapt to terrain,or stay upright in comfort... Make sure that you work your normal 'flex range' in any change you decide on making in your stancing,because it Has To Work in the whole of your movement pool,or you'll fall down somewhere. So think of binding canting as a rough adjustment,one that you'll get right (when it feels right) at about 80% efficiency.Using cuff canting will take up another %5-%10 of that,so it's the 'fine tune' button here.To deal with the last of the %, look at your footbeds,but carefully and with a bit of patience. As I said over on Freecarve,it's rare that a rider truly gets it 'dialed in' perfectly,and it takes awhile to do this. I'd guess that only a very riders even ever seriously delve into this,but those that know,know.... That was actually a question from "Coldrider" and not me. Nevertheless I had wondered the same thing myself - although I kind of guessed the answer. Anyways back to my canting settings. So I rotated the *front* cant disk to 90 degrees and that feels a LOT more natural. In the past I felt like the outsides of my feet were getting smushed, from Bruce Varsava's article - that was probably due to the 1-2* inward cant I was getting when I really needed 1-2* outward cant (almost 3-4* the wrong way). I might try this configuration a day or two before deciding whether to upgrade to TD2s. From the article is implies that I need 2* outward cant max... such as 2* on the front and 0* on the back. With my current setup I think I have 2* outward cant on the front disk and 2* inward cant on the back plate... which isn't optimal, but better than before (I didn't think that it would be a good idea to flip both plates so that they are 90s with the board, because then I would be getting like *3-4 outward canting, which is probably too much). Still will probably get a pair of TD2 if the price is right. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corey Posted April 13, 2004 Report Share Posted April 13, 2004 Originally posted by lonerider I remember trying to do that really early on, but failing to figure out how to do it on my Burton 3-hole pattern. Maybe with a bit more experience I can do it properly now... With the Burton 3D pattern you can turn the TD1 disc in steps of 60 degrees. That's pretty coarse, but you can turn the disc to give you pure lift if you run about 60 degree angles. On the 4x4 pattern, you have 90 degree steps. You could use the formula posted above to figure out exactly what numbers you would get. Neither of these options have the fine adjustment of the TD2, but they will allow you to experiment a bit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack M Posted April 13, 2004 Report Share Posted April 13, 2004 Originally posted by lonerider Sounds good. Having toe lift gives you a bit more leverage, correct? Mmm, no. It just makes your stance more comfortable and natural, imo, by neutralizing some of the forward lean built into your boot. I find it increases your range of motion. If you want to REALLY get forward, try a flat front foot. However, I find this to be a quick way to burn out your front quad, and that it locks you into that forward position. But many people prefer a flat front foot. Oh, my question was whether I would be able to use the longer screws that I will be getting for the MADD board on a regular board, or will they be too deep. I guess I should just be getting two sets of screws (or even two sets of base plates) anyways. They would probably be too deep for a normal board. And it's a bummer to see four little pimples poking out of your base under your binding. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zcarver Posted April 13, 2004 Report Share Posted April 13, 2004 Thank you for that picture and info. Definitely looks like better and big improvement bindings over the TD 1s!:) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coldrider Posted April 14, 2004 Report Share Posted April 14, 2004 So think of binding canting as a rough adjustment,one that you'll get right (when it feels right) at about 80% efficiency.Using cuff canting will take up another %5-%10 of that,so it's the 'fine tune' button here.To deal with the last of the %, look at your footbeds,but carefully and with a bit of patience. Thanks, PSR, for the answer. It still seems a bit odd to me that what seems to be an important alignment issue isn't addressed through a single mechanism, rather than by a combination of two (or three if you count footbeds) which are located in different places. After all, when I adjust the seat in my car, I use a single mechanism, rather than one for big adjustments and one for fine tuning. Is this because most bindings only allow canting in fairly large (i.e. 3 degree) increments? Is there some resouce available that can help me to better understand the arcane science (or black art) of dialing in alignment on a hard boot board? Thanks. Cheers, COLDrider Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Pre School Rider Posted April 15, 2004 Report Share Posted April 15, 2004 Catek bindings provide the most fluid adjustments with a large range of adjustment.The new TD's are getting very close to providing a broad range with minute adjustment,and Phiokka has a two-disk element that also does adjustments in lift/cant very smoothly. As for boots,well,that's another item. Luckily,the cuffs are made with lesser bindings(in terms of tilt adjust) in mind,so once the foundation is laid correctly,your cuffs should be pretty close 'as is'. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kent Posted April 15, 2004 Report Share Posted April 15, 2004 Not really responding to any one particular post, but think a few terms are starting to be used incorrectly. Canting a boot and canting a binding solve two totally different problems. Without going into detail (as you can search the forum for previous posts), canting a boot cuff does little to help with alignment unless you have a custom insole. I would suggest starting with an insole, move to cuff alignment (which can be done with your insoles) and a flat stance. From there you can then tweak the set-up. To start off with monkey business and theories is only going to confuse the situation. K Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest jeffnstefanie Posted April 15, 2004 Report Share Posted April 15, 2004 " I love to go swimming with bow legged women and swim between their legs" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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