Soft Boot Carving

[Rob Stevens]

Rob- I'd never let anyone think of me as closed minded.... so I'm setting up a board.. So given size 27.0 1998 Salomon Malmutes and Union Force DLX bindings...I am 5'10" - 174 lbs, with 32 inch inseam... What board, stance width, and binding angles and offset would you recommend.

It takes awhile sometimes to see where someone is really coming from... You don't seem that way to me at all.

For boards, it's too bad most wider ones are not as stable as what we're used to. I tried a Salomon 72 Burner recently and it was solid, but spendy. My boots are 27.5's so I'm looking for width. Most with larger feet would say that I'm lucky with regards to my foot size, but it's still hard to find one that eliminates overhang, while still having some tortional response. You had mentioned "binding out" on the heels and this is the biggest problem I find with high edge angle in low angle stances. Someone on here made up a set of Catek's with the heel loop taken out and a highback off of a Flow. Very clever. There is a picture of it around this site somewhere... I use modded C14's with the heel loop cut off after the last set of strap mounting holes. The instep strap and the highback are held in place by one bolt through these holes. I can't put my highback down without a screwdriver, but I can lean it over much more.

I have never ridden your bindings, so I don't know... I think you would, like me, want light and stiff, so carbon fiber is about the only choice. Burton has **** the bed (though the do make Noboards for us now) with their new C60, so don't go there. The Nideckers are reco'd all over the place.

How about 20 to 21 inches, 25 and -3, and an offset that primarily focuses on reducing drag. I can't comment on the effectiveness of your "Gilmour Bias" because I usually do it the other way... Front foot to the toe edge and back to the heel.

Still debating whether to teach for the mountain as opposed to being in the race dept.. (they offered me a position today) I actually tried to ride sorta crappy in front of the testers so they wouldn't bug me too much- but they saw a few carves they weren't supposed to see and offered me the job about 1/3 of the way into the test..argh.... but then again.. I'll have to ride Ginger Bread man as a instructor clone... (there was only a single Snowboard coordinator that made Ginger Bread man look smooth in mixed crud)

I have never heard the term "Ginger Bread Man" used, but the picture is clear... Shoulders and hips aligned with a low angle stance. There is an inherent stability here for the average rider, but it is not as intuitive a position when it comes to carving. It seems to force the movement much lower into the body and the hips are used differently, as you know. Feet, ankles and knees need to be utilized and held solid through internal forces, where on hardboots, I found that I could simply move my hip inside and the rigid nature of my boots would do the rest. Not to say that there isn't much more to it for the expert on hardboots who can overpower the gear to a degree, but carving alpine gear is more intuitive, both in equipment and in the physiological sense.

You made the paralell elsewhere that from an evolutionalry standpoint, we are much more predisposed to stand facing forward and that inputs of force are best dealt with head on. This is true, so a high angle stance should be better for absorbing tip and tail shock, as opposed to standing sideways to it. The counterpoint is that we're still not as stable as a skier in this position and lateral balance is compromised.

So I'd like to try your advice. I've got a Never Summer Board to ride..I'll measure the waist width.

I have gotten feedback that gingerbread man heelside carves are much harder (As I have found in the past) but if you can solve this.. I'm open to any suggestions. I wanna carve plate binding fast on steeps.

You should try laid carves in flat angles. Toeside... no problem. Heelside... That's another story. I have seen pics on Vin Q, but he's on high angles. This allows him to be on his side, rather than on his back in a laid turn.

The secret seems to be "faking it" a bit by rotating low and forward and having an insane amount of core strength.

As far as stand up carving at low angles on heelside, if I can't edge the board as much as on my alpine setup, I'll just try to pressure it more effectively. I'm usually rotated and anticipating my direction change a bit into and in the fall line, but as I come out, I'll begin to counter back to an aligned position and as I reach that position, I will push my toes away from each other as I drive the heel of my back foot into the snow. Back into alingment with stance now, I am ready to anticipate the toe turn.

I can guarantee you that they wouldn't want me teaching a forward low aggressive edging riding style for steeps. They want something that can be achieved by a 80 year old 300 pounder as well as by a 5 year old that had his parents lie about his age to get into the program.

Too bad they haven't realized that 300 punders can't do this anyway. When I'm doing quick, edge to edge turns anywhere, I'm low and forward, regardless of stance. If th turn is medium to large, I'll stay aligned with my angles most of the time, but for the bumps and thight trees, Im down and core counter-rotating like a sumbitch.

This is the CASI way... If you can make it look clean, effective and can show someone else how to do it, we like.

So what's my riding prescription? I'm also bowlegged enough to hold a grapefruit between my knees with my feet touching.

As you put your feet wider in a normal standing postion, does it still feel ok? If so you should be comfortable at flatter angles.

Thanks for asking... I really want to keep this going with you, so tell me how it works out. My style is built around my body and needs, so I'm really interested to know.

[Dave ESPI]

im new, can ski boots fit into carving bindings??

Not really. The shape of them is different, and there is not the same strength in the toe and heel bail area.

Although you can use SNO-BLADES on snowboard hardboots with plate bindings :D

Also: ***Look I can carve chalk on steeps in softboots. I also can run in deep powder in bardboots (if it is steep) and deal with some chop too and air.. But why force an inappropriate set up upon a particular snow condition? It's really taxing on yourself to force the gear upon the wrong conditions- you'll fatigue faster and find it more difficult to recover from a mistake- and harder to regain balance or reset your edge.

^^^^^^^^^

I completely 100% agree. I don't really care how stuborn some hardcore hardbooters are. there comes a point where "use the right tool for the job" becomes a factor.

This past week and weekend dump of snow is a perfect example.

Friday freshies, was either or. Sat am it was hardpack over slipery ice, and no edges held on a carve (hard or soft board) Sat night it was lumped up and boilerplate. Sunday Morning, hero groom and a hardbooters dream conditions. The afternoon, too much work to ride hardboots due to high traffic volume on the mountain, and "spooky" snow that was neither hard nor soft consistently and again got lumped up.

We all may have a preferance one way or the other, but I've ridden enoug of both to know when to get one out, and put the other away, or to take it back out and rip it up.... same reason you wouldn't ride a big cannyon powder directional board in a boarder cross race or freestyle comp.

[Dr D]

im new, can ski boots fit into carving bindings??

welcome some can depends on the boot and how big your feet are.

start a new thread though so you don't jack this one.

[b0ardski]

man can get to the moon but he can't change sticks without changing boot\binding systems, I don't get it:confused:

[kmartshopper]

I have gotten feedback that gingerbread man heelside carves are much harder (As I have found in the past) but if you can solve this.. I'm open to any suggestions.

I wonder about this too. On high angles/hardboots, it's (relatively) easy - or at least intuitive - to more laterally drive with knees and get the hip down towards the snow with a vertical torso. So getting the board up on edge (which is what it's all about) is somewhat intuitive. You also aren't inherently counteracting that angle as you crouch further down.

I find low angle heelsides in softboots a little harder to figure out though.How to really get the board on edge without straight legs sitting on the toilet. Getting the knee into the snow on toesides isn't too hard, but everything you want to do to carve harder on heelsides seems to counteract the edge angle. Just stand in place and crouch down... tends to drive the board away from the direction you want for heelside engagement - unless you really focus on bringing the board up towards your chest - almost leading with the toes. Grabbing for the board seems to help focus on this for me, but it's still not as easy or effective for me as that lateral motion. Also, if I tend to over-rotate into the turn and load up the front foot, like I might a little when initiating in hard boots, my rear foot is almost completely unloaded and I lose it. Seems like I need to stay facing your toes more.

...but for the bumps and tight trees, Im down and core counter-rotating like a sumbitch.

This is the CASI way... If you can make it look clean, effective and can show someone else how to do it, we like.

??? If I understand what counter-rotating is, I do a hell of a lot of it in the bumps too. My friends make fun of my arms, but none of them can keep up with me... With a light board I can pop off one bump - tap the other direction, then move it back before putting my weight back down (sometimes). That's that must be all counter-rotation, since there's no external input - no? I can ride a pretty tight line like that, but judges may not use the word "Clean" to describe me. Are you saying that's actually OK form though?

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Zx14 vs hayabusa

[Dave ESPI]

words

I agree. Your description is good.

Getting lower on the heelside works really well on the flats, and on the steeps you can stand up a bit higher and just lean back while keeping pressure on the front comming into the turn and back foot while exiting.

Also riding with angles turned up "directionaly" is a huge advantage. I'm running 38/28 on my one twintip with Rozi HC-4000 bindings and it handles soft boot carving really well.

As to the counter rotating: Think of yourself as "Elvis".... O'l swivle hips.

Body turns right, legs and board go left with a hard shove with the back foot in almost a rudder steer move.

[Derf]

man can get to the moon but he can't change sticks without changing boot\binding systems, I don't get it:confused:

He can get to the moon with almost unlimited funds, but he doesn't sped unlimited funds on making boots that would permit it.

[Rob Stevens]

So getting the board up on edge (which is what it's all about) is somewhat intuitive.

At low angles (hard or soft) edge angle on the heels can't be what it's all about. This is the issue faced by many who believe this to be true and are constantly trying to do it. As I mentioned in a previous post or two, it is equally about pressure control and to some degree, tailing, or back foot pivoting.

If you can't tip it over as much, you have to make sure you're in the right place, pressure wise, through the turn (front, middle, back) and standing in a position that is just a tipped over variation of a standing-at- rest athletic position.

The board can also be moved to a higher line by tailing it. At the end of a turn, when your pressure point is squarely under your back foot, you can lift the nose with your front leg by firing your hip flexors, bringing your front foot up as you press the back one down. You will be trying to put the nose back down on a higher line, tightening up the radius. It has the same net result of having made a tighter carve through edge angle.

There can be higher edge angle if there is no boot out or binding out. You can get very low without "sitting on the ****ter". This comes fron core strength. A lack of this will allow your hips to externally rotate. Keep your abs fired as you move your butt to the snow.

There are still limitations at lower angles when it comes to the ability to recover from a very low heelside position. This, combined with pressure over edge angle considerations is why you see SBX riders in softboots sticking to the berms allowing a flatter base and the hardboot rider taking the inside, next to the flag, tipped up to a high degree.

??? If I understand what counter-rotating is, I do a hell of a lot of it in the bumps too. My friends make fun of my arms, but none of them can keep up with me... With a light board I can pop off one bump - tap the other direction, then move it back before putting my weight back down (sometimes). That's that must be all counter-rotation, since there's no external input - no? I can ride a pretty tight line like that, but judges may not use the word "Clean" to describe me. Are you saying that's actually OK form though?

Power counter rotation comes from the core. The other kind comes from sending your arms one way so that you can lever your legs against that force, in the opposite direction. This latter tech works, but is goofy looking and inherently unstable because your arms weigh alot. If you're doing it "quietly" the force you're resisting against, to make your legs move from side to side, is through a tightening of the abdominals that does not go further up the body than your short ribs at the base of your rib cage.

[kmartshopper]

There can be higher edge angle if there is no boot out or binding out. You can get very low without "sitting on the ****ter". This comes fron core strength. A lack of this will allow your hips to externally rotate. Keep your abs fired as you move your butt to the snow.

I was just trying to point out what I think is one of the inherent limitations between high angle hardboots and low angle softboot was. I don't think that you'd argue - all other things being the same (balance, weighting, etc) - a higher edge angle will carve better.

Sit on the snow on your butt in the soft low angle setup with legs straight out - board 90deg to snow. Bend your knees into a crouch... it's tough to keep that board up at 90deg.

Sit/lounge on the snow on your hip with legs straight out with high angles in hardboots. Bend your knees into a crouch. That angle can be kept pretty vertical.

That's all I was saying. I like reading your tips on how to improve on that situation and I'm going to focus on giving it a try once all this nasty fresh powder is out of the way. FYI, I won't be in hardboots tomorrow :D

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Vapolution Vaporizer Reviews

[Dr D]

just increase the angle until your toes and heels are on the board with no overhang or boot out but no further. then apply the higher angle techniques discussed previously. even at low angle drive the knees toward the nose during the heelside carve. your body has to drive the same way the board is traveling. If you drive down into the board at low angles you are driving across the edge and you will skid.

I had a fantastic day today riding the 185 race carbon identity (19cm waist) with catek Freerides at 63/60. It worked great I used a booster strap on the front foot. I also have my cateks modified with drake carbon 14 highbacks and straps. they are a very wide tall strap that really helps.

[b0ardski]

thats a bad a$$ board D, I wouldn't even think of ridin mine in softies... oh yea, I don't own softies:eek:

[Dr D]

thats a bad a$$ board D, I wouldn't even think of ridin mine in softies... oh yea, I don't own softies:eek:

sshhhhhh I 'll tell you a secret:cool: I have had so much trouble getting hard boots to fit without killing my feet that I don't think I could ride it with hard boots as well as I do with the softies.

In all fairness though Its not really a standard softie set up either.

And I have a 162 slalom and a 168 freecarve as well so what I did was start with the turny slalom and when I felt strong on it I moved up to the 168 and when that started feeling good I moved to the 185. I also have the Garage prototype in 195 which I am hugely tempted to try with this setup just for the sake of the experiment. they all have similar feel as far as the sidecut goes. reverse caternary whatever the hell it is starting at 7-9.5ish on the slalom and ending at 9-14ish on the 185. john's boards all have that autopilot feel when you tip em up on edge they hook up without a lot of other input so maybe that helps?

[b0ardski]

I guess i'm lucky, I loved my 123's from day 1 in 93 & now with thermo fit I love my 124's even more. Used burton 3 straps in the '80s but I'll never give up my hardshell stepins, I can ski in them too:biggthump

[b0ardski]

I wish we could get John to build some more garages, I want 178 with a 22-23 waist twin tip carbon:1luvu: I'm suprised how well the 173 ID glass hooks up a carve w\out the carbon, & still forgiving in the powder trees

[Dr D]

Its got the black stripes in the glass doesn't it? thats the carbon. It isn't a complete sheet of carbon like some. mine had an extra layer of the carbon striped glass in it so it was stiffer. I picked up an ID at the pawnshop justlike the new one he sent you. I should take it out and try it.

[b0ardski]

My 1st id has the carbon rods which make it longitudinally stiffer but it's cracked, the replacement I bought from John is all glass so it's a little more fogiving in bumps & tight trees. still hooks up a carve though. If you find another one in a pawn shop grab it & I'll buy it from you, glass or carbon, nothing less than 173 though:biggthump

[Dr D]

My 1st id has the carbon rods which make it longitudinally stiffer but it's cracked, the replacement I bought from John is all glass so it's a little more fogiving in bumps & tight trees. still hooks up a carve though. If you find another one in a pawn shop grab it & I'll buy it from you, glass or carbon, nothing less than 173 though:biggthump

I will wax this one up and take it for a spin to see if I like it. if it doesn't do anything different than what I am already riding I would be willing to let it go. I am trying to thin the quiver to reasonable proportions.:D whatever that means:lol:

[b0ardski]

I think reasonable is 1 board or pair of skis per year of riding.:lol:

If you don't want to keep that perfect do it all board I'll take it off your hands, it's a little wide for carving but I can live with that. Wish you could make it to Silver for INWES Fri.

[Dr D]

I was hoping to but I just can't justify missing a friday from work. the weekend would have been doable.

[b0ardski]

Originally was set for fri & sat but allot of us only planned for fri. we'll be missing a few riders with real jobs. Next year 2 days for sure. Might try for another Posse session at Schwietzer the end of March.

NEWS, we're gonna shoot for INWES sat. at silver also with a shared rental aprtment Fri. night for out of towners. So anyone interested Email me thru BOL.

Sorry for the thread jack, will post on the ride board:biggthump

[Puddy Tat]

I think that, in spite of the changes in equipment in the past ten years, it still requires less effort for the same degree of railing in a hard set-up versus a soft set up.

I'm making much of this comparison based on being out of riding for the past ten years. Got married, had kids, focused on rock climbing for awhile. The first thing I had to do this year was upgrade both my hard and soft boots. I'm now riding UPZ RTR hardboots (up from a set of old 1994 Raichle 727s) and Burton Driver X softboots (up from a set of Burton Comps). I was amazed with what a difference there has been in the past ten years.

I'm riding the Driver X's on a 1994 Burton CK Slopestyle (173cm) with 45/40 angles and in the soft spring conditions yesterday I was stoking my ego on a groomed run under a lift with a forearm in the snow on every turn. I left the hill wondering what I could have done with the UPZs however. Because I bought the UPZ's late in the season I've only had a couple of runs this year to try them out, maybe seven or eight turns total. But they were far better to carve on than my '94 Raichles 727s.

Back in the early nineties I used to think a hard set-up was required for serious carving. With the really laterally stiff "soft" boots I now see availiable, I question that assumption. I am fairly sure that the UPZ hardboot will maintain its stiffness characteristic far longer than my Burton Driver X boots. I also question whether a softboot will dig into serious hardpack the same way my hardboots have allowed me to.

Next season - new bindings. Need something with ratching straps for the softies and something metal and step-in for my 1995 Oxygen freecarving board.

[BlueB]

Still way better, harder charging, less effort, less pain, more grip on the h/boots. Try it for yourself.

And you certainly think Raichles 121. 727 never existed, just funny written 1s... You'll probably find that majority of the 4 buckle boots are better then the low-cuffed 3 buckle 121s.

[Przemek/Brooklyn]

Ok here is my 3 cents.

i was teaching some beginers thisseson and i prefer to teach in soft so students can realte beter. I had some oportunity to try softies in diffrent setups. Also i was switching boots like an idiot 5 times a day.

here are my findings:

1 one can carve quite well in softies (similar angles and technique as alpine on my 172 tanker) but only in optimum coditioons as soon as it get icy (east coast) or more bump up it does not work any more.

2 when you do fully laid down turn it is kind of difficult to get up for some reason

3 whole thing seems to be a little sketchy i feel like i am about to brake my ankle all the time, i dont think soft set up can support my style of ridining

4 overall i dont see any reason to use soft (i dont ride pipe and park)

and my hard boots perform well in the woods and powder, more precision (i forgot to mention snowkiting but it is a different story)

5 I really dont see how one could carve efficiently with negative angles (duck) it will make your hillside look like puping and ice and steeps are out of question. Unless we talking blue trails only.

Thanks and sorry for spelling

Przemek

[mrjamie]

Ok here is my 3 cents.

5 I really dont see how one could carve efficiently with negative angles (duck) it will make your hillside look like puping and ice and steeps are out of question. Unless we talking blue trails only.

yea, I was out for 8 hours straight on softboots yesterday and I started to feel that way about heelsides... but toesides feel awesome, getting my waist back over the back of the board and tweaking the style. Even with 29.5cm boots and 15 -9 angles, I still got my knee dragging on every toeside ;)

hardboots look like awesome tools for carving, but honestly I haven't touched mine in a while... there's so much more freedom to play anywhere on the mountain in softboots, not just carve, but I guess carving is why most people are here eh!

[newcarver]

I think if you get the right style of alpine board you can do about anything on plates with no problems. I have just started this season on plates and love it so far. I used to just ride freeride all the time. I have an all mountain/free carve board that I can ride anywhere with plates and feel comfortable. I've had it in powder, trees, hit small jumps, etc. It carves great too. Who says you need a tail to have fun! Feels like you have more control with the hard boots too. Oh and you can carve better. Only think I haven't done is hit the park with it. It is still fun to carve in softies though. And I think I like them better in deep powder, although I haven't got to ride with plates in anything over 6" deep yet.