Isolating bindings from Titanal board.

[cail]

what would be your complete setup if you had a new metal Coiler (plates, boots, bindings)?

[yyzcanuck]

Because we're the F2 & DeeLuxe distributor, it would most certainly be F2 Race Ti, S-Flex, Track 325. My only variation from that would possibly be INTEC™ Ti bindings to help alleviate any problems with my 'donuts for breakfast' habit!!

Does that mean the other manufacturers' equipment isn't suitable? Nope. I'm biased because of my industry position.

Oh, I almost forgot... of course I'd be using some of Fin's latest boot laces as suspenders to hold up my wool pants, duct tape to keep my mitts from falling apart and a grease/oil stained leather SkiDoo jacket!!

[Bordy]

It appears to me that stress distribution or redistribution does not adequately address the problem. A detailed failure analysis, backed by FE analysis and applied mechanics and applied mathematics need to be performed while taking into consideration the composite structure and the various adhesives and the core.

Haven broken a non metal board in similar fashion to metal ones, I think the problem may lie deeper than the surface. There is no doubt that the interface contribute to the problem but it is not the real culprit, I think.

I have seen old Volant boards dented and even bent and they never fail like the new generation of boards. I know a Penn transplant that was riding a bent volant for some time and wondered why his carving sucked and quickly corrected it by putting him on a Nidecker Tornado GS, the one with titanal.

Bola

www.allboardssports.com

1-303-415-1600

I think there is a huge difference between the volant stanless fiber glass construction and new titnal carbon fiber construction and also because of the camber profile on Kesslers in particuloar(and some prior and virus metal shapes) the new longer noses set back stances contribute much fore forces then ever before.

I had a local freind who Dowd had hooked up with a stack of the aggressions, I never really liked them becuase the tails were just to soft for my style of riding. But we did break a bunch , have them delam and dent. but not in the same way most current metal boards break.

I have of course snapped non metal boards also but the new titnal boards were breaking in almost the same place for every one.

[MUD]

It appears to me that stress distribution or redistribution does not adequately address the problem. A detailed failure analysis, backed by FE analysis and applied mechanics and applied mathematics need to be performed while taking into consideration the composite structure and the various adhesives and the core.

That would give you the theoretical answer...... After a HUGE amount of work.

Tons of variables! FEA works best when you can isolate variables.

I say, if the isolation plates work, go for it!

OR, you could always try and talk the manufactures into doing the work.

It would be a fun project though.

[Guest Jamar]

I've witnessed the progression of boot/binding changes with our National Team. Riders there have made nearly a 180 degree change in their equipment. As metal boards progressed, some riders have gone from the stiffest DeeLuxe 'team only' boots (INDY and Lemans 325's) to standard INDY, then Suzuka, now Track 325's and Track 700's. Binding selection changed too. All metal construction has been replaced with what might be considered soft or more forgiving plastic and Titanal.

I consider myself privileged to be able to ride the latest COILER metal boards due to my friendship with Bruce, to have the financial means to buy a Hangl-Spirig, VIST and S-Flex just to play with, and have the industry connections to allow me to use boots of my choice. I can say with all conviction... softer is the way to go if you can afford it. It means the whole package, not just the board, or the bindings, or the boots.

Now you might ask what do I actually ride? How about this... a 5 season old COILER RC180II, standard construction, Raichle (yeah, Raichle!!) SB325 boots, and F2 INTEC Ti bindings. Soft? Nope but it works as a package. If I ever make the transition to a new Titanal board construction it will include an isolation plate system, standard bindings and boots with more flex.

Funny that's almost straight out of the Swoard equipment/set up page:

http://www.extremecarving.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=150

or

http://www.extremecarving.com/tech/mat.html

quote:

"Boot<o></o>

Difficult to find really high-performance hardboots today. They are either too soft, either too hard, because the ankle joint is controlled by a totaly primitive system (usually free or blocked). The own material of the shell must bend itself (like with freestyle boots) and so, this doesn't allow a rigorous ankle rotation control.<o></o><o></o>

A Brand (Nothwave) had understood it and put on the market in 1997 or 1998, two fabulous models (man and woman). The very stiff shell had an ankle joint controlled with an ingenious springs system with a lot of tuning possibilities. The foot, very well hold in a very comfortable inner shoe, was perfectly controlled thanks to the help of the springs which worked as calf muscle reinforcement. On the piste, the feeling was a bit like in the powder where the calf power is sufficient to vary the ankle canting while feeling totally safe, because the shell is stiff enough to prevent overbending.<o></o>

Northwave boot<o></o><o></o>

Unfortunately, the decrease of the alpine market forced this manufacturer to stop its production...

Those who follow the ISF Worldcup noticed perhaps that a lot of racers still use them, even the champions like the Schoch brothers (the yellow boots with black tong).<o></o>

We take care of ours with love an devotion...<o></o>

If you know a really high-performance hard-boot, please tell us, sothat we could test and advise it. The brand Deeluxe is not excellent but it has the merit to exist. We recommand rather the HEAD Stratos Pro, provided you modifiy and soften them. See the articles about the shoes in the FAQ of the Forum.<o></o>"

[dingbat]

We recommand rather the HEAD Stratos Pro, provided you modifiy and soften them. See the articles about the shoes in the FAQ of the Forum.<O></O>

Which forum?

[Guest Jamar]

http://www.extremecarving.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=2701

by the way, not ment to be us against them discussion again...just personal preferences. Ride how you want as long as you have a nice El Nina year!!!

Peace.

And now, back to our regular programing...bindings on Titanal boards...

[cail]

hey jamar, thanks for the info!

[anewell]

BlueB mentioned Teflon / PTFE -

You can get it in sheets from Small Parts Inc:

http://www.smallparts.com/products/descriptions/vt-vte.cfm

along with Delrin, UHMW Polyethelene, Polycarbonate, and other interesting materials too.

[MUD]

I wouldnb't use Teflon, it creeps BIG TIME. The pressure from the binding will cause it to flow. You will have a hard time keeping the bindings tight.

It may work for the purpose really well though, just keep an eye on the binding bolts.

[Terryw]

You guys are making me worry. I have a new Coiler 177 AM T that is due to be dellivered next week. I was planning to mount TD-2 Si with the yellow elastimer on top of the suspension system. Also riding suzukas with yellow springs. Nice and soft all the way around. Do you think I should still be worried?

[Hans]

You guys are making me worry. I have a new Coiler 177 AM T that is due to be dellivered next week. I was planning to mount TD-2 Si with the yellow elastimer on top of the suspension system. Also riding suzukas with yellow springs. Nice and soft all the way around. Do you think I should still be worried?

I have the same setup on my 180II RC. Can't see any dings in the topsheet.

Must be no problem because if you read the topics carefully the TD2's with the yellow are usable/preferred for the T. boards.

[Chris Houghton]

If you're concerned about what bindings are OK to use on your Coiler, ask Bruce. He will know what's safe and what's not.

[bobdea]

layer of polycarbonate might still be a good idea

[Mike T]

If you're concerned about what bindings are OK to use on your Coiler, ask Bruce. He will know what's safe and what's not.

Here is what he said when I asked him "should I use a suspension kit with my TD2s on my AM 172 T with topsheet".

"Never seen that suspension kit so not really sure what it would do. The

metal top boards are most exposed to denting. I do put in some extra

reinforcing from the bottom to support the inserts but not as much as a

regular board. This will keep them from pulling out but does nothing for the

denting. I had a kid ride a metal top board all last season with TD2s and

it was fine. The topsheet boards have extra durability beyond that so I'm

pretty sure normal TD2s will be fine. Using Cateks on those MAY work also

but I wouldn't risk it.

Can't see the TD2s being an issue and that is part of the reason I am going

for the tops."

[Ernie00]

I'm receiving my custom RC180 metal too today and this post got my worried.

I talked to Bruce today and he said with the topsheet he put over the metal is shouldn't be an issue they are very resistant.

So I'll just go with the TD2 and yelllow elastomer no suspension kit.

[Terryw]

I asked Bruce about this also, and he said pretty much the same thing to me about the young rider on the other metal board and TD-2 Bindings. I am still going to put the suspension kit between bindings and my precious board ;) .

I bet Bruce is getting tired of answering this question over and over again! Oh well, if you want to be on the cutting edge sometimes you have to take some risks. I am sure this topic will come up again after we all have some real world experience to report back on. Hope I am smiling when I make those reports!

[Bordy]

I am sure this topic will come up again after we all have some real world experience to report back on. Hope I am smiling when I make those reports!

Metal board on the race scene for 5 years, No athletes over 115 or so pounds directly mount bindings to metal boards currently world wide. Top sheet or not. Almost all US team athletes run some thing also.

Seems real enough to me to take precaution....... I haven't direct mounted since having metal boards fail.

[cail]

i got a 3/16" sheet of polycarb (Hyzod...aka Makrolon) from ebay. gonna use this under F2s.

[Bordy]

Here is what he said when I asked him "should I use a suspension kit with my TD2s on my AM 172 T with topsheet".

"Using Cateks on those MAY work also

but I wouldn't risk it."

Straight from Bruce he has seen first hand what Cateks do to metal boards why he and JJ were figuring it out.

I know about the issue also hence my problem with the manufactor.

[Mike T]

Straight from Bruce he has seen first hand what Cateks do to metal boards why he and JJ were figuring it out.

I know about the issue also hence my problem with the manufactor.

OK, no question about concerns with Cateks

Here is a snippet from your earlier post, #5 on this thread:

With some bindings you may still want to take added measures using the suspension kits for bombers and the extra D3 thing for cateks. With the Plex pad

Said post includes a story about a broken back, you've got my attention.

Even after seeing words straight from Bruce's keyboard, do you still think that TD2's (with or without suspension kit) should not be used on a metal + topsheet deck without a plate of some sort? I'm guessing you will answer yes (yes, shouldn't be used without a plate), just wanted to check.

In any case, here is what Home Depot sells in terms of polycarbonate sheets:

http://www.homedepot.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?storeId=10051&langId=-1&catalogId=10053&productId=100244149&marketID=77&locStoreNum=4008

(They carry many sized sheets, but it's all the same stuff - .091" which is about 3/32" or 2.38mm)

Would one of these sheets under each binding do the job? A number about twice that size was being thrown around before. Would it be a bad idea to simply stack two of them on top of each other?

Anyone know of a chain that sells thicker sheets?

Also, having never worked with polycarbonate, would an everyday hacksaw and drill suffice for cutting and drilling it?

[cail]

Mike, there's a place called Curbell Plastics (www.curbellplastics.com). I know of that one cause they have a branch here in albany. Also check ebay. search for Hyzod (now called Makrolon). That's what i ordered (~$10 plus shipping-where i ordered shipping was also $11...more than the sheet itself).

[Bordy]

I would run the plates under any binding I use.

Even the picture scott from catek posted in another post showed girls runing the plate on SG boards which have a topsheet much like coliers.

You guys can do what ever you want. I'm running at minimum the spacer(polycarb, polypro) 5mm plate on all my metal boards with F2s. If I was running TD2 I would run the plate and the suspension kit. Just my out look, If the boardbuilder you are riding says your cool with out a plate hopefully if any thing happens the board builder will honor that call and take care of you IF there is an issue. Your call we are all grown ups.

I would look to what riders on metal boards in a race course are doing.

I am sure you could stack the home depot plate. I am not but again your call.

[Mike T]

These guys have some decent prices, for those like me who cannot find 3/16" polycarbonate locally:

http://freckleface.com/shopsite_sc/store/html/product83.html

The 12x12 sheets at $4 a pop looked really tempting until I realized that each TD2 would eat up a whole sheet, and I could get 3 to a sheet from 12x24. Thinking that 10x7.5 is about the right size.

If anyone knows any reason why I should *not* try cutting this stuff with a hack saw or drilling with a standard drill please speak up.

[Derf]

If anyone knows any reason why I should *not* try cutting this stuff with a hack saw or drilling with a standard drill please speak up.

Polycarbonate and Lexan, it's okay. Use a fine tooth saw, like a metal saw or bigger teeth, but not as big as a wood saw. Acrylic or plexiglas, be very very careful, it can shatter easily. Always use eye protection. But I guess everyone realized "polycarbonate good, acrylic bad" by now.