cail Posted November 5, 2007 Report Share Posted November 5, 2007 I know there has been some considerable discussion about bindings on titanal boards lately, but i'm still trying to wrap my head around one thing in particular. Wouldn't lexan risers alter the overall flex of the board? Or is it not considerable? I see the Sflex comes with different stiffnesses, but i'm looking for something cheap (i.e. homemade). So in effect, I'm looking for any input from those that use lexan/plexiglass/other under their bindings. Thanks in advance. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yyzcanuck Posted November 5, 2007 Report Share Posted November 5, 2007 ... I see the Sflex comes with different stiffnesses, ... Where did you 'see' this information? Edit: Found the info in another thread here where Bola made reference to various stiffness of S-Flex. That was only on pre-production/prototype versions. The production models that are available now only come in one configuration. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cail Posted November 5, 2007 Author Report Share Posted November 5, 2007 interesting... yeah that was the same post i was referring to. in that case, how stiff are Sflex compared with Hangl plates and Kessler risers? i'm only interested cause I'm going to make my own plates, but i dont want to go with straight lexan cause i'd think it would be too stiff, so maybe a combination of materials that won't be too soft but still able to flex with the board. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kirk Posted November 5, 2007 Report Share Posted November 5, 2007 Wouldn't lexan and plexiglass risers alter the overall flex of the board? Or is it not considerable? From what I've gathered, these lexan/plexiglass etc. plates are in the 4-5mm (??) range for thickness. From what I know about lexan, it has a high impact strength as well as a certain elasticity. One would think this would allow the material to flex with the board. Would like to hear other's experience with this as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bordy Posted November 5, 2007 Report Share Posted November 5, 2007 Most metal board that fail, fail due to several factors however one of the safe guards all metal board riders should apply is a “distribution plate” between the board and topsheet . Every binding make a pressure point where it makes contact at the beginning of the flex pattern. I.E. at the first point the binding limits the board flex regardless of the binding this is going to happen. What happens is as the board bends and rebounds it can “dent” the metal creating a weak spot in the shear strength the metal creates, weakening the board at that point and possibly failing later. Using Plex under the binding stops the Dent from happening and helps the binding flex point be distributed over more area and since the plex is soft it doesn’t make the hinge point like the binding does (nor does it change board feel). In till the hangle plate most athletes on metal board were riding plex “pads” under there bindings. However it is very rare to see Bombers or Cateks under racers feet. Most choose a softer binding for there metal rides. But even with bindings like F2s or burtons boards were breaking left and right and we where really getting nervous on them but the ride was so much better you really could not be competitive on none metal boards. But when metal came out to the masses it became obvious some binding where much more abusive to metal boards, some manufactures even claimed warranties would be voided if you used some brands of bindings on their metal stick. I think we are going to make some plates from products you can get at Home Depot for around 10 dollars a pair and post a how to on the hardbooter site in the next few days. Perhaps even a template you can print and use, I will also post some photos of a broken metal board that clearly shows the pressure point fracture. That then led to me breaking my back and ending my racing career Since metal boards are finding there way into the hands of so many recreational riders who clearly don’t want to take the risk of a board breaking do to pressure point failure I highly recommend installing the plates on any board with exposed or covered metal in the product. Plus you still get some added lift to help with leverage. With some bindings you may still want to take added measures using the suspension kits for bombers and the extra D3 thing for cateks. With the Plex pad I also try and educate riders on metal boards about the new feel of metal under there feet and encourage all metal board riders to try softer boots and bindings if they have the chance. Most new school metal board do not have to be as stiff to provide a bad ass ride so neither does the gear need to “power” it properly unlike superboards of the past. I also am straight afraid to use one particular brand of bindings on metal boards due to personally watching several boards fail (metal and wood) with this binding. All from pressure point issues with this particular binding. It may be due to the lack of suspension pads under the binding it may also be due to the direct metal to metal contact when mounted, perhaps its because the milled holes are not round and “strange” torque is introduced into the mounting points in some cases, causing the binding to A damage inserts or B rip out of the board while riding some times due to damaged inserts from mounting or perhaps since the screw provided with the binding may not have enough length to make proper purchase. Also this brand of binding always leaves marks on the topsheet of boards and causes dents in metal under and around the binding after only a single run. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D-Sub Posted November 5, 2007 Report Share Posted November 5, 2007 bordy = succinct! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlueB Posted November 5, 2007 Report Share Posted November 5, 2007 Bordy, I really think you should refrain from calling the pads Plex. It gives the wrong impression that they should be made out of Plexiglass (acrylic) insead of Lexan (polycarbonate). As discussed before, Plexiglass is a brittle material, it shatters and doesn't like compression loads araund drilled holes, nor tightening with the screws. Lexan or other polycarbonates are flexier and practically indestructable. On the side note, did anyone try the cutting board (high-molecular polyethilene). It should have nice dumping properties too... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MUD Posted November 5, 2007 Report Share Posted November 5, 2007 It is actually a buckling beam problem. Even stress distribution over the length of a beam can be disrupted by surface imperfections and irregularities. If a beam has a "dent" it will have a stress concentration a this point, being a small feature, the stress concentration is VERY high. With this flaw the beam may have been able to handle a much higher stress than it will after the flaw is created. Or something like that..... My question is: Why don't the manufactures supply boards with a floating plate (hangl plate) already attached? Then you just bolt on your binding of choice and away you go. Ski manu's have been doing this for quite a while. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kirk Posted November 5, 2007 Report Share Posted November 5, 2007 I think we are going to make some plates from products you can get at Home Depot for around 10 dollars a pair and post a how to on the hardbooter site in the next few days. Perhaps even a template you can print and use, I will also post some photos of a broken metal board that clearly shows the pressure point fracture. Look forward to this!! What kind of thicknesses have you used? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Prokopiw Posted November 5, 2007 Report Share Posted November 5, 2007 I've been wondering about using cutting board material as well.I have a couple of poyethelene ones and even put them in the freezer for a day to test for brittleness and they seemed fine.This is just the kind of redneck engineering that I apply to most of my ideas/tweaks so I plan to give it a try. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobdea Posted November 5, 2007 Report Share Posted November 5, 2007 It is actually a buckling beam problem. Even stress distribution over the length of a beam can be disrupted by surface imperfections and irregularities. If a beam has a "dent" it will have a stress concentration a this point, being a small feature, the stress concentration is VERY high. With this flaw the beam may have been able to handle a much higher stress than it will after the flaw is created. Or something like that..... My question is: Why don't the manufactures supply boards with a floating plate (hangl plate) already attached? Then you just bolt on your binding of choice and away you go. Ski manu's have been doing this for quite a while. I'd bet it's a cost thing, allot of the true race stock skis do not still. many of the plates on the skis are premounted so you're forced to use binding X Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cail Posted November 5, 2007 Author Report Share Posted November 5, 2007 i agree with Kirk, that would be awesome. i spent most of the morning looking into different materials supplied through a local distributor. i may make some inquiries into a couple of them to test them out. but if lexan works just fine then that will probably be the way to go. thanks for all the input so far. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hans Posted November 5, 2007 Report Share Posted November 5, 2007 My question is: Why don't the manufactures supply boards with a floating plate (hangl plate) already attached? Then you just bolt on your binding of choice and away you go. Ski manu's have been doing this for quite a while. For instance TINKLER or Apex board including plate Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MUD Posted November 5, 2007 Report Share Posted November 5, 2007 For instance TINKLER or Apex board including plate Exactly. I just started my own thread on this...... Just so we don't highjack this one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tex1230 Posted November 5, 2007 Report Share Posted November 5, 2007 what we really need is another 50 threads on the same subject..you'd think there was no snow on the ground... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MUD Posted November 5, 2007 Report Share Posted November 5, 2007 None here!!!!! We won't be on the snow until Thanksgiving, if that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pokkis Posted November 5, 2007 Report Share Posted November 5, 2007 None here!!!!! We won't be on the snow until Thanksgiving, if that. This was view from cabin window on crowded Saturday http://www.flegmatic-carving.com/gallery/displayimage.php?album=11&pos=2 Unfortunately now i need to wait 4 weeks to get back on snow, if we dont get real cold front here sooner. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MUD Posted November 5, 2007 Report Share Posted November 5, 2007 This was view from cabin window on crowded Saturday http://www.flegmatic-carving.com/gallery/displayimage.php?album=11&pos=2 Unfortunately now i need to wait 4 weeks to get back on snow, if we dont get real cold front here sooner. NICE!!!! It is very brown here right now..... We did have some flurries about an hour ago. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobdea Posted November 5, 2007 Report Share Posted November 5, 2007 that's one shiny sexy beast of a board Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bordy Posted November 5, 2007 Report Share Posted November 5, 2007 Bordy, I really think you should refrain from calling the pads Plex. It gives the wrong impression that they should be made out of Plexiglass (acrylic) insead of Lexan (polycarbonate). As discussed before, Plexiglass is a brittle material, it shatters and doesn't like compression loads araund drilled holes, nor tightening with the screws. Lexan or other polycarbonates are flexier and practically indestructable. On the side note, did anyone try the cutting board (high-molecular polyethilene). It should have nice dumping properties too... Product reads PLGA 220 on it I assume it is Plexaglass I am sure there are better materails to use but I have used PLEX pads for 3 season and never broken one. I have scene ABS used, cutting boards, Stacks of base, Prof is in the pudding using PLGA 220 for 3 season, Made several other sets for competing riders using same stuff, no problems. Since it sounds like lexan is better maybe I'll try it next time. How many Plates have you made?? and out of what?? how did they work? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skategoat Posted November 5, 2007 Report Share Posted November 5, 2007 Dave: What exactly is the S-flex? $429 seems awfully dear for a plastic or rubber plate. There's got to be more to it than that. Do you have any kind of exploded view or schematic? Henry Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cail Posted November 5, 2007 Author Report Share Posted November 5, 2007 skategoat, check here.. http://www.bomberonline.com/VBulletin/showthread.php?t=15965&page=3&pp=30&highlight=sflex a note on ABS. anyone that is thinking this route should be careful with abs. it sometimes has a relatively high coefficient of thermal expansion (unlike polycarbonates). in otherwords, temperature changes could have significant impact on shrinkage and expansion of ABS plates. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlueB Posted November 5, 2007 Report Share Posted November 5, 2007 Product reads PLGA 220 on it I assume it is Plexaglass I am sure there are better materails to use but I have used PLEX pads for 3 season and never broken one.I have scene ABS used, cutting boards, Stacks of base, Prof is in the pudding using PLGA 220 for 3 season, Made several other sets for competing riders using same stuff, no problems. Since it sounds like lexan is better maybe I'll try it next time. How many Plates have you made?? and out of what?? how did they work? Abreviation does sound like plexiglass, indeed. Just, let's not assume, as the pros do not assume. Who is the manufacturer? That would alow one to use the product code and trace the material properties. 3 season without failure sounds very good. As for me, I didn't make any plates as I didn't need any so far. However, as an industrial designer with 15 years of experience with plastic, metal and composite products, I extensivelly used acrylics and polycarbonates for products ranging from signage and safety screens up to the speed boat winshields and super yacht windows... Acrylic (Plexiglass) did fail in many situations. So, if one is already going through trouble of making the pads, he might as well use the material that certainly will not fail. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kirk Posted November 5, 2007 Report Share Posted November 5, 2007 Product reads PLGA 220 on it I assume it is Plexaglass I am sure there are better materails to use but I have used PLEX pads for 3 season and never broken one. Thickness? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pebu Posted November 5, 2007 Report Share Posted November 5, 2007 Also ABS tends to get brittle when cold, depending on the mix. On another note, some board makers are using ABS for the sidewall materials, so I guess it could probably go either way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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