tankers made in china

[Guest AllMountain]

wow! i had no intention of starting a political thread!

anyway, based on the positive reports here, and the beautiful fit and finish of my chinese-made tanker, i've decided to keep it, even though RJ graciously had offered to take it back.

w.r.t. politics and economics: china is a developing nation that is trying to maximize its position, just like the rest of us, and they've recently figured out that people work harder when they get to keep (some of) the wealth they create. as the wealth of their population grows, so will the demand for better labor practices, a cleaner environment, etc.

in the meantime, by lowering the costs of basic goods, they are enriching the rest of the world massively. politicians with agendas try to get us to believe that economics is a zero-sum game: if someone is getting richer, someone else must be getting poorer. but the creation of wealth doesn't work that way. while there may be temporary, local "dislocations," modern, developed economies work around them in a heartbeat. looking at the big picture, it's win-win.

[BlueB]

There is no way anybody in the free world can compete against slave labor.

Aaaargh! I'm really getting tired of these slave labor stories.

Again, it is US that has history of using slave labour to develop the country, not China.

What slave labour you are talking about? Those Chineese workers are paid for their work. They are free to work or not to work for the company, too. They might be paid very small vages in western standards (and for western prices), yet they manage to live on these vages and probably are way better of then farmers or unemployed ones.

[bobdea]

much of the child labor is slave labor in that either the children end up in debt and never are able to leave the factories because the owners charge them more for room and board than they actually pay them to work at the factory or they just never get paid. this is far from unique, it happens all over the world, a good example is in saipan which is a US territory so products made there carry the made in USA label while the conditions they were made in rival china or any other place in the world for exploiting people.

Another good example is what goes on in TX, CA and even in NY with illegals, not just mexicans either allot of asians as well.

China has used plenty of slave labour even under communist rule, Mao was a big fan of it just like stalin http://en.epochtimes.com/news/4-3-24/20545.html

some research does you well before posting about how country X does not or has not used slave labor.

[refried]

Canada has it's share of illegals and sweatshops too, Ever been to Vancouver? Do you think everyone working in the shops there is legal? I have a friend who hires mostly illegals and he tells me Canada is the easiest country to get into. Once into Canada, they take a whalewatching cruise, stop in Fiday Harbor to go siteseeing, then dissapear showing up in Seattle a day later.Then he hires them using someone elses ID. He feels that many of the people he hires this way have a better work ethic than what he can find localy.

[D-Sub]

can anyone else out there speak from experience about the made-in-china tankers?

:lol::lol::lol::lol: Pretty simple question.

[bobdea]

me and Bryan seem to think they are alright, we are both big boys that load up boards.

[carvedog]

wow! i had no intention of starting a political thread!

anyway, based on the positive reports here, and the beautiful fit and finish of my chinese-made tanker, i've decided to keep it, even though RJ graciously had offered to take it back.

w.r.t. politics and economics: china is a developing nation that is trying to maximize its position, just like the rest of us, and they've recently figured out that people work harder when they get to keep (some of) the wealth they create. as the wealth of their population grows, so will the demand for better labor practices, a cleaner environment, etc.

in the meantime, by lowering the costs of basic goods, they are enriching the rest of the world massively. politicians with agendas try to get us to believe that economics is a zero-sum game: if someone is getting richer, someone else must be getting poorer. but the creation of wealth doesn't work that way. while there may be temporary, local "dislocations," modern, developed economies work around them in a heartbeat. looking at the big picture, it's win-win.

I was looking forward to getting a tanker as I can't seem to find another Frontier 185 and several have told me that Tankers are the shizzle. Very hard for me to support Chinese products. Not just from the obvious not wanting to support an imperialist, predatory, military oligarchy masquerading as communism.

The other thing about supporting foreign labor is the trading of wages (less in foreign) for transportation. All the offshoring of manufacturing means that everything has to be transported much further. Usually there and back. Which means we are trading a small price savings for two to three times as much emissions of tranpsortation pollutants for the same product.

From a quality standpoint it sounds like the boards are ok. Or good. Maybe great, but you have to support people who support you. Not that these workers in China would not support us/you given the opportunity - but they don't. No capital is flowing from China to this country to purchase goods or anything else.

I am more likely to shop at the place that is run by the snowboarder that used to teach with me, and seems to enjoy the same elements of snow, wilderness, rivers etc., than the guy at the box store in the next town who doesn't even know what hard boots are but sells them for less. We need to start voting with the only thing that has any real power in this country which is the almighty Mastercard/visa/discover/amex.

[Guest AllMountain]

... you have to support people who support you ...

actually, there is a web of entities that support me in my desire to have great carving equipment. rad-air, in switzerland, does market research, product development, promotion, distribution, etc. RJ, in california, provides inventory and support for U.S. customers. a factory in china produces the product inexpensively and (apparently) with high quality.

switzerland, u.s.a, china ... i'm a beneficiary of their cooperation, and i hope they prosper and continue to provide things of value to me.

[BlueB]

I am more likely to shop at the place that is run by the snowboarder that used to teach with me, and seems to enjoy the same elements of snow, wilderness, rivers etc., than the guy at the box store in the next town who doesn't even know what hard boots are but sells them for less.

Now here are more valid reasons.

Amen, brother.

[carvedog]

actually, there is a web of entities that support me in my desire to have great carving equipment. rad-air, in switzerland, does market research, product development, promotion, distribution, etc. RJ, in california, provides inventory and support for U.S. customers. a factory in china produces the product inexpensively and (apparently) with high quality.

switzerland, u.s.a, china ... i'm a beneficiary of their cooperation, and i hope they prosper and continue to provide things of value to me.

Selling to you is different than supporting you. When I think of support I think of getting my cash to someone who has a chance to give it back to me. That is the whole premise of buy local.

In these times of few vendors in the alpine snowboarding world, maybe none of us can afford to be selective in our choices. If these companies weren't showing a profit they would not be able to support all these folks working in distribution, promotion and product development. Maybe that is why Burton is out of alpine now, whereas a smaller niche player has less overhead or company bloat to carry and can make it. Whether they are made in China or Germany may make the difference between solvency or not.

I don't wish them to go out of business. I just wish they were made more locally.

I thought RJs offer to take the board back is exactly the kind of customer service we need in this industry and makes me want to do business with him.

If you did not have concerns about the product and it's lineage I don't think you would have posted this thread. Maybe your concerns were merely linked to quality of product. Globalization, politics and economics sure does get complicated.

[Steve Prokopiw]

I agree with much of what I have read here but just a little note on the 'onesidedness' of the trade relationship with China.According to a snowboard client (a hardbooter btw)who owns an abrasives company based in Germany that does business in China,they now have a larger middle class population than North and South America combined.And,of course everyone knows ours is shrinking.

[nuejam]

LMFAO, and most of us ride fossile fuel-powered chairlifts, too :)

yea, I was thinking about that and that this coming season I'll be teaching beginner lessons where we ride the lifts all around... maybe all those hours walking in the back country will absorb enough C02 in my lungs and I'll get cancer and die, and save the environment too.

[ealely]

Riders,

I know there is a lot to talk about THE country and I might give you some feedack sometimes :D but please, just for a month or 2, don't make too many serious comments on BOL otherwise I might not be able to read this forum in the near future ....thanks!

[Phil]

Riders,

I know there is a lot to talk about THE country and I might give you some feedack sometimes :D but please, just for a month or 2, don't make too many serious comments on BOL otherwise I might not be able to read this forum in the near future ....thanks!

But you don't understand. We are Americans, we fully understand ALL political issues both at home and abroad. Because of our superior understanding, we are the best people to judge what is right and what is wrong in our country, your country and everyone else's country. In fact, we do not even need to know anyone there and talk to them about it first, because we know enough from our media sources to have the ultimate knowledge of what is going on. You need to tell your people how it is, because apparently they are in the dark.

Please, pardon our ethnocentrism.

[BlueB]

we know enough from our media sources to have the ultimate knowledge of what is going on.

:lol: :lol: :lol:

Well done Phil! It puts a well rounded and humorous end to the polytical part of this discussion.

[ealely]

But you don't understand. We are Americans, we fully understand ALL political issues both at home and abroad. Because of our superior understanding, we are the best people to judge what is right and what is wrong in our country, your country and everyone else's country. In fact, we do not even need to know anyone there and talk to them about it first, because we know enough from our media sources to have the ultimate knowledge of what is going on. You need to tell your people how it is, because apparently they are in the dark.

Please, pardon our ethnocentrism.

Phil, I got your point. I'm european and I have no right to make comment about the US but as said BlueB, thanks for the 'humorous tone' anyway.

Hum...but well you know, most of people living in our world are in the dark anyway, no matter the country or their political system...in the end, power always controls media, unfortunately even in democratic countries...

In some way it's often the best way they have to keep social peace without too much frustration you know

Carpe ride :D

[John Bell]

My wife used to work for the US government on combating human trafficking, so I know something about the subject, at least secondhand.

It's absolutely true that the conditions in China and many other countries are abusive in many if not most factories--long hours, low pay, etc. And the environmental protections are nil.

What muddles things is that the alternative for these factory workers is often prostitution or begging. In poor countries that have very little manufacturing, this is often the case. If it was your 9-year-old daughter, would you prefer that she be sewing for 12 hours a day or working as a prostitute? Because *those are the choices* over there, like it or not. We can and should try to change that, but in the meantime, it's good these people have jobs.

I think that improvement in conditions will come gradually, with political pressure from other nations. Remember that the US had some pretty awful textile mills in the 19th century. (I'm not going to compare child labor in China with slavery in the US, because there simply is no comparison. That would be gauche and inaccurate.)

I used to avoid buying Chinese-made goods until I realized the reality of the choices over there. And I still lean toward buying things made in more developed countries--but to be honest, it's mostly for selfish reasons. I simply believe (perhaps wrongly) that a snowboard made in Austria is probably better made than one made in China. I have nothing to base this on, and I might well be wrong. After all, US automakers are paid better than any in Asia, and who makes better cars--GM or Toyota? (Yes, Japan is more labor-friendly than China, but I'd still bet that a Chinese-made Buick is better made than a US-made one.) I will say that I regard China as a very evil country for its oppression of political dissidents, its support of the truly Orwellian military junta in Burma, and its ongoing financial support of the Sudanese government. But not buying goods made there isn't going to change anything.

Anyway, despite the horrific conditions in these factories, the people who work there are actually glad to have those jobs. I wouldn't want to flip burgers down the street here, but I'm sure the person who does that is glad to have the job rather than no job, or he wouldn't be doing that. If you feel guilty buying something from China, then donate some dough to UNHCR, Amnesty Intl, MSF, etc.

Sorry for the ramble!

[RJ-PS]

Talked with Harry about some of the concerns posted and he submitted his reply:

Everyone at Rad-Air is a rider, and we have always focused our goals to

improve the riding performance of our products. However, from the

business point of view, margins are continuously getting tighter for

dealers and wholesalers in the global snow sports industry and it was

crucial for the Rad-Air brand to switch to a factory that offered the same

quality at better pricing. This was not an easy decision and was done

not to make more money, but to make sure the brand will survive and to

have a budget for future product development, design, distribution, etc.

Snowboard production at the factory in Germany was not profitable as

they primarily concentrated production on hi-end ski’s, not snowboards.

We will continue to provide the best product we can to all of our

customers around the world and the factory in China where the boards are

currently produced has many years of experience in snowboard and ski

manufacturing and continues to produce items with very high quality

standards utilizing both American and European engineering combined with

an efficient and effective production process. The past two seasons of riding

on the boards from China have met or exceeded all expectations from the

Rad-Air community of riders both old and new. Thank you all for your

continued support, Ride On!

Harry Gunz

co-founder

Rad-Air – Snowboarder Driven

[svr]

I have been a rad-air fan for a long time and know most of the people involved with the company very well and consider them all great friends and Fat Old Bastard's comments are dead on, so as long as Harry and the rest of the rad-air crew are involved in the development process for the tankers, I will continue riding them no matter where they are built as I know that Harry will not let a product go out the door that he won't stand by. Hope you all get a chance to try a tanker in powder and get a good winter this year.

cheers

[ealely]

Any idea what factory is making these boards and where??

[nils]

Talked with Harry about some of the concerns posted and he submitted his reply:

Everyone at Rad-Air is a rider, and we have always focused our goals to

improve the riding performance of our products. However, from the

business point of view, margins are continuously getting tighter for

dealers and wholesalers in the global snow sports industry and it was

crucial for the Rad-Air brand to switch to a factory that offered the same

quality at better pricing. This was not an easy decision and was done

not to make more money, but to make sure the brand will survive and to

have a budget for future product development, design, distribution, etc.

Snowboard production at the factory in Germany was not profitable as

they primarily concentrated production on hi-end ski’s, not snowboards.

We will continue to provide the best product we can to all of our

customers around the world and the factory in China where the boards are

currently produced has many years of experience in snowboard and ski

manufacturing and continues to produce items with very high quality

standards utilizing both American and European engineering combined with

an efficient and effective production process. The past two seasons of riding

on the boards from China have met or exceeded all expectations from the

Rad-Air community of riders both old and new. Thank you all for your

continued support, Ride On!

Harry Gunz

co-founder

Rad-Air – Snowboarder Driven

I know Harry from reputation, and know he would not release a board without it beeing fine :)..."This was not an easy decision and was done

not to make more money, but to make sure the brand will survive and to

have a budget for future product development, design, distribution, etc. " i fully believe this too and Regis Rolland did the same for the same reason...its just that it needs explainations so people dont think they are paying for less quality... I also know that it took Regis a LOT of efforts to get good quality from the China factory, and it is not just like giving a phone call and boom u have the boards...

N

[davekempmeister]

I just took another look at my new one. It sure is pretty.

[Phil]

I just took another look at my new one. It sure is pretty.

You bought a Tanker?

My offer for you to demo any of my boards is now off the table! ;)

Very Jealous.

[lonerider]

China has used plenty of slave labour even under communist rule, Mao was a big fan of it just like stalin http://en.epochtimes.com/news/4-3-24/20545.html

some research does you well before posting about how country X does not or has not used slave labor.

Hello all, being of Chinese descent (American-born, but my parents were both born in China but moved to Taiwan following the civil war), I have often participated in discussions about the social, economic, and political situation in mainland China both within my family (my uncle was a professor of Mathematics at Beijing University, my mother worked at the United Nations for thirty years) and while in college (Wang Dan, student leader at Tiananmen, was a classmate, although I didn't know him well). I have travelled to China several times, both as a child and as an adult. My parents took me to the Three Gorges prior to the dam being build so that I could see it before it was gone. I have visited Beijing in 1987 and 2001. I have been to the factories in Shanghai as a VIP guest and yet have also talked with my friend who spent a year in Sichuan teaching English while covertly collecting old newpapers (poorer people used to use them as wallpaper) for her thesis (a risky endeavor even for a natural born US citizen).

With all that background and a Harvard education... all I can really tell you in general is that the situation is very complex and to simplify things in a single line or two really misrepresents what is going on over there... actually I should say "here" since I've been in China for the past couple of weeks travelling for fun (hopefully my posting won't be censored as they monitor all internet traffic... incidentally Youtube is blocked right now). I still don't believe I fully understand what's going on myself.

What I definitely know is that the Epoch Times is ridiculuously biased as it is Falun Gong-run paper. Not that there is anything inherently wrong with Falun Gong or being anti-PRC, but if you actually know anything about China and read the Epoch Times on a regular basis (read their articles on their own Nine Commentaries), you will realize that they are the political equivalent of the "National Enquirer," in which while many stories might have a seed of truth, they are often twisted and exaggerated to comic proportions (even worse than the state run papers sometimes). I actually read it at lunch sometimes for amusement, much to the dismay some of my friends who are more "active."

So if I read in the Epoch Times that the Chinese government is allegedly impressing people into slavery... I take that as the government and state-sponsored companies are doing some very unethical and immoral business practices (like forcing workers to DEPOSIT money when they join to keep them from leaving work or changing jobs within a month and enforcing curfews in which workers are locked in their dormitories during the weekdays) ... but not actually forcing people into the traditional definitions of "slavery."

I've no doubt Chinese workers can produce quality. But every item bought sends a percentage to the People's Liberation Army.

Also, I agree that the Chinese government has a vested interest in its companies making more money (perhaps to the detriment of its citizens). I would though like to point out that the US Defense Intelligence Agency estimates that the Chinese military budget is somewhere $85 and $125 billion dollars. In contrast, the United States spent $585 billion dollars for its military (roughly 20 times per citizen, still more than double if you account for cost of living differences).

Of course you might say that the US government and military has the American's people's best interests in mind. Probably... but I can't help but notice that last year Halliburton has made roughly $14 billion dollars in revenue this year alone for contracts in Iraq. Also, despite claiming that it was maimed by Katrina, following the start of the Iraq War, ExxonMobile was able increase it profits nearly 50% in 2005 to $36 billion dollars and nearly $40 billion dollars in 2006 while also being under investigation for human rights violations in Indonesia committee by its employees.

But there is a perfectly good explanation for all of that you might say... and there might be... my only point is that things are more complicated than they seem in China.

Anyways... I probably said more than I should.

[nuejam]

∞

Word.

Appreciating problems as they exist locally is completely necessary before hoping for change anywhere, but on a place like the internet where information is pooled and presented in a global, virtual dimension, when conversations aren't located in a certain specific space, I feel that they drift just as easily as the bits and bytes through which they are relayed...

Considering that it's the capital stormclouds, dark with culpability for global warming, hovering over the PRC, to which the factory owners rain dance; the hidden upper-stratosphere of racism and indifference which lend the storm strength, it would seem almost as if the skill of 'westerners' for picking out these injustices elsewhere comes from an intimate knowledge of injustice at home.

Hope that's precisely vague enough to avoid any filtering going on... on either sides of the oceans.