Lumbar vertebrae, ligament and sciatic nerve-ARG!!

[skategoat]

I think the key lesson from McKenzie is, after you are healed, don't go back to your old ways. For me, that's bad posture, sitting at the computer for hours and no stretching exercises of any kind. I'm now committed to a lifetime of preventative maintenance.

[skategoat]

So how is everybody's back? Me - I got worse after posting my last message. I was getting some severe sciatic nerve pain. I tried to stay active by walking and working around the house but one day, I sneezed and felt something pop in the back. I hit the ground like a ton of bricks.

MRI this week confirms my worst fears - herniation of the L4/L5 disc. I only got a verbal, not a full report but the radiologist tells me it's a "large" bulge.

I have a new Coiler on the way but I have a feeling it's going to be a wall display piece for this season at least

Get ready for the mother of all alpine snowboarding garage sales.

[Galen]

So how is everybody's back? Me - I got worse after posting my last message. I was getting some severe sciatic nerve pain. I tried to stay active by walking and working around the house but one day, I sneezed and felt something pop in the back. I hit the ground like a ton of bricks.

MRI this week confirms my worst fears - herniation of the L4/L5 disc. I only got a verbal, not a full report but the radiologist tells me it's a "large" bulge.

I have a new Coiler on the way but I have a feeling it's going to be a wall display piece for this season at least

Get ready for the mother of all alpine snowboarding garage sales.

Skate, that blows HUGE chunks! Sorry to hear that. I saw the McKenzie guy last week. Good news, bad news. He said I"m not bad enough to have to do the exercises, have excellent range of motion, I'm on my way to healing. Also, it turns out the periodic pain I've been getting in my shin isnt sciatic nerve problems, but tendonitis. He was able to tell this by bending my foot back straight knee'd, then bent knee'd. Massage should take care of it, going in today. Also figured out what really happened. I put horrendous strain on my hip, which pulled the iliolumbar ligament(connects L5 to your hip bone), which in turn(over about 3-4 days) pulled the L5 out, then the sciatic nerve problems. I"ve been in line about 2 weeks now, and the shin and iliolumbar are all thats bothering me. Massage therapy and and kettle bells should fix this(i hope) I feel a little better every day and have stepped up my exercise, longer walks and more time on the elliptical. really sorry to hear about your probs. thanks for the tip on the Mckenzie, it was well worth it to find out more about my injury.

[Steve Prokopiw]

Skategoat,sorry to hear that! My wife and I are thinking of visiting her family later in the winter and I was hoping to ride with some of the TO hardbooters then.Pray for a miracle,they do sometimes happen.(this statement is related to the fact that our oldest nephew's lymphoma is gone after a long hard battle that looked lost a short while ago.We'll be seeing and riding with him in TO) Hope your situation changes for the better.

[skategoat]

Skategoat,sorry to hear that! My wife and I are thinking of visiting her family later in the winter and I was hoping to ride with some of the TO hardbooters then.Pray for a miracle,they do sometimes happen.(this statement is related to the fact that our oldest nephew's lymphoma is gone after a long hard battle that looked lost a short while ago.We'll be seeing and riding with him in TO) Hope your situation changes for the better.

Steve:

If I can't make it, there are tons of hardbooters in this area. I'm afraid our hills are pretty lame though, compared to Idaho. Check out the Ontario forum for the date of SOS. It would be cool to have some out-of-towners join up. If I can't make the riding, I may just come along and drink beer in the chalet.

The diagnosis is depressing news but it doesn't change the fact that I have actually been improving over the last couple of days. I just don't want to risk a re-injury which is why I may hang up the hardboots for this season. Even more depressing is the prospect of giving up golf or at least changing the way I play. I like to bomb the driver. Now, I might have to play a Punch and Judy game.

Henry

[Terryw]

Hey Skategoat, I am glad you are improving. I hate back problems. It seems as though backs and knees become the bane of our existance. I hope your recovery is rapid and allows you to play the way you want to. I have often wondered if Golf predisposes one to injuries. You only swing on one side of your body, and you rotate relatively quickly when you do swing. Of course I guess everything we do physically can lead to injuries (sneezing! Damn) so we might as well enjoy our sports while we still can.

[Bobby Buggs]

Wow I didnt know you back issue folks were here, I thought I was alone.

This was a post of mine from the main board ,

I had a Nerve conduction study and an EMG today. Bad news as I have progressing nerve degeneration in my lower leg causing significant muscle atrophy. Tests showed it in the L4 level area. Now the fun part. I had a disc cut in 2005 but it was a L5-S1 and the MRI of last week confirmed that. It also said quote "The remainder of the lumbar spine demonstrates no significant disc bulge or Herniation, No significant spondylosis or facet arthrosis". WTF??? how is this L4 in trouble??

Just wondering if any of you have been through this, what procedures you had and were you able to ride after. Of course I’m not expecting to see any time on the hill this season as I know the drill. If there is a compression in the L4 it must be dealt with ASAP or risk the permanent damage.

Any comments??

[skategoat]

Bobby:

You might want to try www.spine-health.com. There is a forum there to talk about back problems and personal stories. Warning - there are a lot of depressed people on that site. I stopped reading it because it was getting me down.

HK

[Bobby Buggs]

I found that site, yes it was depressing. But like most things, people only go out and complain, rarely do they go out and tell you things are great, they just move on.

[Dr D]

That would be the normal progression of degenerative disc disease. As one disc fails it compromise the adjacent joint and the process begins there as well. It is caused by lack of motion in the joint. Usually an injury resulting in misalignment and immobilization of a vertabra (L5 in your case) The disc is dependant on motion to recieve the fluid and nutrition it needs to function and remain healthy. There is no direct blood supply to a disc. The nucleus needs fluid to maintain the hydrostatic pressure it requires to function. Much like holding a sponge underwater and squeezing repeatedly moves water in and out of the sponge, your normal movement pulls fluid in and out of the disc. when the joint gets stuck the motion at that level is compromised starting the degenerative process via dehydration of the disc. This is noted as a dessicated disc on an MRI.

Chiropractic addresses the reduction in foramina size and resulting pressure on the nerve by reintroducing motion to the joint. relief of pain occurs when the inflammation reduces and pressure is relieved from the nerve. Long term stability takes longer since it involves maintaining motion in the joint until the body heals and can maintain that motion on its own.

hope that helps explain it. I always feel like I am rushing an explanation online since my typing skills are prehistoric:biggthump

[Bobby Buggs]

Reviewed my MRI film today. It is clear I still have some material at the nerve root. Question is, is it scar or residual disc material. Im worried since the first Dr was not able to get to it what will the next one do.

[Bobby Buggs]

What do you see

[Dr D]

depends on which slice we are looking at. I do notice significant "wedging" of the disc that I would equate with the scenario described above. a healthy disc is level and parrallel top and bottom. the wedging closed in the back indicates a joint that is incapable of normal movement at the present and a continued degeneration of the disc. I would need to see the rest of the pics to be more helpful. as long as the disc is wedged you will be at the wim of inflammation. when the area is inflamed you will have pain and trouble down that particular nerve, when it isn't inflamed you may feel completely normal. you can manage the symptoms best with ice at the nerve root. Ice will not effect the underlying problem which is joint dysfunction.

[Dr D]

http://www.gonstead.com/members/doctors_list.php?state=MA

http://www.gonsteadseminar.com/referral.aspx

http://www.drmallen.com

[Galen]

Bobby:

You might want to try www.spine-health.com. There is a forum there to talk about back problems and personal stories. Warning - there are a lot of depressed people on that site. I stopped reading it because it was getting me down.

HK

Yea, that is a depressing site :( I posted about my problems (i dont have anything like the pain those folks are suffering) and the moderator and a frequent poster said to go to neurosurgeon, and stop seeing the chiro because consensus on the board was that they can make things worse Not my experience as my Chiro has done wonders. Also noticed that many of them are in pain due to surgeries, so I'm confused why they would make that statement. anyway, Massage and kettle bells along with walks/elliptical are working for me. I'm going to see a sports injury dr that specializes in hip(the original cause of my injury) to get diagnosed, but I'm pretty confident the non-evasive course I'm taking will do the trick.

[Galen]

Just an update and a word of advice. I went to an osteopathic surgeon, he diagnosed me with a hip flexor strain and prescribed 4-6 weeks of PT, 2-3 times a week. More specifically the iliopsoas, two muscles that start at different points (the psoas originates from the spine, while the iliacus originates from the hip bone) they both end up at the same point; the upper portion of the thigh bone. The PT said my injury, sustained in a very deep squat, is probably what eventually pulled my L5 out from the gradual retraction of the muscle after been severely stretched. hopefully 4 weeks of PT will fix it. Therapy is pretty painful, trigger points in the groin area(femoral triangle). If you've ever had lower back pain and cant figure out what it is, worth investigating. Part of the muscle covers the lumbar region and can mimic lumbar dysfunction of sorts. Here's a couple good articles on it:

http://www.chiroweb.com/archives/15/05/24.html

http://www.thestretchinghandbook.com/archives/iliopsoas-tendonitis.php

My advice: If you have an injury that lingers for more then couple weeks, go see a specialist(or 2). My condition was out of the scope of 2 chiro's, a McKenzie specialist and a massage therapist. Not they're fault, I was just seeing the wrong people. I'm feeling pretty stupid, but relieved I finally know what's going on(I hope!)

[Mike T]

Just an update and a word of advice. I went to an osteopathic surgeon, he diagnosed me with a hip flexor strain and prescribed 4-6 weeks of PT, 2-3 times a week. More specifically the iliopsoas, two muscles that start at different points (the psoas originates from the spine, while the iliacus originates from the hip bone) they both end up at the same point; the upper portion of the thigh bone.

Ah yes - my right (back foot) psoas has apparently been troubling me for many years. Mine isn't strained per se, it's just overused and almost constantly contracted. Apparently this is a rather common situation, or at least more common than it should be.

Therapy is pretty painful, trigger points in the groin area(femoral triangle). If you've ever had lower back pain and cant figure out what it is, worth investigating.

Worth investigating, certainly. Painful therapy - not your only option. I've responded well to acupuncture and that has not been painful. Some very strange sensations as things are probed and stimulated, yes - but not painful. I've had the psoas trigger point therapy described to me as "the only thing a male can endure that hints at what childbirth is like". Needles sounded much better!

My advice: If you have an injury that lingers for more then couple weeks, go see a specialist(or 2). My condition was out of the scope of 2 chiro's, a McKenzie specialist and a massage therapist. Not they're fault, I was just seeing the wrong people. I'm feeling pretty stupid, but relieved I finally know what's going on(I hope!)

I dunno, IMHO your previous caretakers should have at least *recognized* the strained iliopsoas and referred you to someone else if they didn't feel they could help you with it themselves. Iliopsoas troubles can cause so many symptoms that it's hard to imagine that any caregiver doesn't check it out when lower back, knee, or hip pain / loss of mobility is described.

[Galen]

When I said "worth investigating" I meant the iliopsoas as a cause of lower back pain, especially if accompanied by hip pain. I should have been clearer. I tried acupuncture. Did nothing for my sciatica, and sent my back into painful spasms I wont be going back unless my PT suggests it. I"m finding the trigger points only a little worse then deep tissue massage, and the results is pretty immediate. I wish someone had considered the iliopsoas! I think since the xrays confirmed the L5 was way out, that that was the origins and source of my continued discomfort. Oh well.....