Riding hard boots on a freeride board

[Neil Gendzwill]

I never feel the need to have my Raichles unlocked, in fact I don't even ride them with the free-flex mode. If I forget to flip the drink and drive levers up after lunch, I feel all out of sorts on that first run until I do the "doh!" and fix it.

I used to ride Koflach Snowboarders (Valugga Lights painted pink, the Damian model). They're a lot lighter than the Raichles but surprisingly stiffer - they flex forward a bit freely and then stop. The Raichles don't have a stop point like that. I use them in all conditions.

My ski boots are stiff old Langes from the early 80s, I can't imagine riding with them. Time for new ones, I think. SAC had some freeride 120s on sale for $250, I was sorely tempted but I haven't skied regularily for so long I couldn't even justify that price.

[BlueB]

Check these ebay items out, Dalbello CRX, one boot to do it all...

120126955537

120126955562

120026057541

[Dave ESPI]

I've ridden hard and soft all last year and swapped the plates on and off of narrow boards and wide all mountain boards, and have enjoyed the twin tips also. It all just depends on your style of ride and conditions for such. At the end of the season, POW and I were up at Killington, and it was brutal to try and be in hardboots, so we changed to soft gear and had a blast.

[Steve Prokopiw]

On my small and tight home mountain nothing beats riding my 161 all mountain board in Raichles all the time and in all conditions.I don't think I will ever buy another pair of soft boots and bindings,nor miss them on powder days or in the park for that matter.However, I can't wait to visit the Bachelor trench diggers again next season(hope to open my season there),pick up the Coiler 182 from Mike and get my cheeks flappin again!

[philw]

I rode ski boots through much of the 1990s as I couldn't get the stiffness I wanted from snowboard boots. The main disadvantage I remember was that the bindings didn't interface particularly well, so you'd get the stiffness from the boot, but the binding interface would have some slop in it. That era ended for me with the Raclie 224 (or was it 5?) and Intec... the step-in stuff allowed me to trade the stiffness of my Nordica GPX (?) boots for the softer snowboard hard-boot, but what I lost in boot stiffness I gained in binding rigidity. I never used "walk" mode and don't understand why anyone would.

These days I have some Indys and Intecs, which work fine.

Generally I think it's worth experimenting with different things until you find something you like.

In this case, what works for you is "right" by definition.

[Bordy]

So Theres no wind latley and I saw Bobs post........

I like all the ideas but there are a few factors noone has mentioned and that is medal and lateral flex.

Funny as it may seem I ski in the boot BlueB is pimping so I know alot about it.

But it (CarveX) like all ski boots flexes poorly for snowboarding. A snowboard hard boot should be firm for and aft while providing dampness laterally and medally.

A ski boot is stiff laterally and medally but soft for and aft. Not what you want snowboarding.

You can of course make either boot work in the wrong application but not well.

If you ever put a snowboard boot into skis you really notice the differance in proformance.

Most people that ride in ski boots have horriable form and have to make up for the lack of ankle movement with strange leg and hip angles and pressure. Chris Karol included although Chris does a great job of hiding it becuase he has cat like balance unlike most avarage riders.

I also think anyone who is riding to stiff a system is only hindering the maxium proformance they can achive. Almost any hard boot set up on a freeride shape is just that. Can it be done ---of course are there better setups Yup! With the exception of some mountaineering aplications with a split board there is no need to ride hardboots off piste or really on piste with any freeride-freestyle shape but you can do it all you want and have fun with it.

Again look at the number of big mountain, freestyle, and freeride pros rocking skiboots, and or hardboots this year when there job and some times life depends on it.

If plastic boots where so effective don't you think some one would use them on non alpine gear?

[lonerider]

Funny as it may seem I ski in the boot BlueB is pimping so I know a lot about it.

Most people that ride in ski boots have horrible form and have to make up for the lack of ankle movement with strange leg and hip angles and pressure.

I also think anyone who is riding to stiff a system is only hindering the maxi,um performance they can achieve. Almost any hard boot set up on a freeride shape is just that. Can it be done ---of course are there better setups Yup!

Blasphemy! (all in good fun before this topic gets toasted extra crispy).

[carvedog]

Hey Bordy glad you healed up enough to go sailing. Sorry for the no wind thing, but good to see you kicking around the Bomber.

Again look at the number of big mountain, freestyle, and freeride pros rocking skiboots, and or hardboots this year when there job and some times life depends on it.

If plastic boots where so effective don't you think some one would use them on non alpine gear?

I see plenty of those freestylers skittering around and going over cliff bands on their head too. Just remember the grab you pull is more important than landing it.

Running my hard boots on my Frontier 185 ( or sub any other big, stiff big mountain board) in powder or chopped crud is just heaven. So easy to leverage the tail a bit and get a 40 foot hop out of it ( at 40 mph too), with complete comfort and control. Never get the wiggle wobbles or toe compression hop squirt thing that happens with soft. Just all that pressure ( ok, ok - weight ) busting through the wonderful, white softness.

In the 15-25 mph range you might not notice the diff as much. For anyone who likes to go mach super schnell, I think you would.

For me it's also about simplifying my life. One pair of boots, eight sets of bindings, 22 carving boards (???)....... well errr lets go back to the one pair of boots. They fit great, comfort all day, use on hard or soft by picking up the other board. I don't like shoelaces either, but that is another story.

[BlueB]

But it (CarveX) like all ski boots flexes poorly for snowboarding.

Ha, nice info Boardy. You'll make me get a pair of Heads/Blax so I can compare first hand to Dalbellos. It is hard to believe thay changed the design (shell thickness, etc)... Maybe just different plastic? They definitelly look the same except for the toe/heel blocks.

Again look at the number of big mountain, freestyle, and freeride pros rocking skiboots, and or hardboots this year when there job and some times life depends on it.

If plastic boots where so effective don't you think some one would use them on non alpine gear?

I have to disagree here. The pros are paid whores (no insult intended, see the article "7 levels of the surfing soul") and they sport what sponsor gives them and what medias hype. Let Deeluxe pay megabucks to a pro rider, and you'll see him hucking the cliffs in h/boots...

Majority of serious backcountry riders (non-pros) are on AT boots / mounteneering plastic boots.

Personally, I don't see how soft noodles imrove my riding/comfort on anything but freestyle board. Been there, not going back. Well, maybe for the hack of it, I should brake out my Burton Drivers sometimes...

Boris

[Steve Prokopiw]

I agree with BlueB. While the insane stuff that goes on in the X Games or Olympics is incredible ; from what I've seen the last fifteen years or so,the snowboard world according to the mainstream is much more about fashion and peer pressure than function. Even in the instruction side of things there were many of us examiners on hardboots until the media and therefore psia/aasi decided they were not cool anymore.A couple of us stayed hard anyway, but I'm over all this pandering to gen x fashion and didn't renew my aasi membership last year to prove it. Had the best, most fun winter in at least ten years and never even thought about softies as I slid the rails, popped my old school grabs and spins over the jumps, ripped through the bumps and tight trees,rode switch all over the mountain and generally enjoyed myself enough to feel ever so slightly giddy about being enlightened enough to have such an unfair performance advantage over 95 percent of the riders,adult or kid, that I meet.The other five percent just rip (and make me want to ride like them)regardless of what they choose to ride.

[crucible]

Boris hit the nail on its head.

When I was a Winterstick rep from 1994-1998, 75 % of the pro backcountry riders that we sponsored rode hardboots, guys like John Griber, Stephen Koch, Nick Peralta, and Tom Burt. Since Winterstick only made boards, I suggest that their boot choices were because that's what worked best for their applications.

Griber and Burt ride softies now, but like Boris said, it's because their boot sponsors changed to soft boot manufacturers.

[lonerider]

I have to disagree here. The pros are paid whores (no insult intended, see the article "7 levels of the surfing soul")

That article is a piece of satire designed to make fun of people who like to categorize other people. Here's a quote from the author of that piece after I commented that I thought the article was silly and didn't get its point.

The point of this asininely silly joke of an article was that it makes no sense trying to put surfers (or snowboarders, or people) into boxes.

Thomas (the author of the stupid thing)

[BlueB]

That article is a piece of satire

Ya? No kidding? I thought it was a scientific study... ;)

That's exactely why I mentioned it, so the local pros wouldn't get me too serious when I called them whores.

[Bordy]

Boris hit the nail on its head.

When I was a Winterstick rep from 1994-1998, 75 % of the pro backcountry riders that we sponsored rode hardboots, guys like John Griber, Stephen Koch, Nick Peralta, and Tom Burt. Since Winterstick only made boards, I suggest that their boot choices were because that's what worked best for their applications.

How many pro now ride hardboots?

Boris said

"I have to disagree here. The pros are paid whores (no insult intended, see the article "7 levels of the surfing soul") and they sport what sponsor gives them and what medias hype. Let Deeluxe pay megabucks to a pro rider, and you'll see him hucking the cliffs in h/boots...

Majority of serious backcountry riders (non-pros) are on AT boots / mounteneering plastic boots. "

I just started riding at the pro level in my fourth sport and am not paying for gear or travel. I have come across the additude you speak of but in every sport we rarley ride what you think we are riding anyhow. I have so much stuff with made by another manufacture with my sponsors stickers and graphics on it. Matter of fact I have been riding a different manufactors Kiteboard currently Since I am not shooting photos its no big deal but I will soon have it disguised!!!

I would be very nice if more riders rode BC in hard boots but they really fail to proform at the level most posters on this thread are claiming. If you can produce photos of several high level athlete riding hardboots perhaps I'll take you a bit more seroiusly. But I have never come across it in my career. And I myself have tryed hardboots at the upper level of BC riding and I still ride softboot in the BC. Perhaps some of your local heros ride hardboots and kill it, thats sick. But not at the world level.

Jeremy Jones has a +M background, He is probably still one of the best hardboot riders in the world when he puts them on. If anyone was a hardboot fanatic its JJ no hardboots on his feet in the BC.

There are just way to many benifits to a soft supple set up in soft snow.

I have posted my thoughts on this subject in more detail in the past I am sure if you do a search you can find them.

[bobdea]

He has more clout than me so I figured it would work best to have him say it.

[BlueB]

How did I get myself into defending the hardboot BC riding? I pretty much suck of-piste... George, Dave, PhilW and few othrs are probably the right ones for this, but here it goes:

Kicking-in the steps, crampons, aproach skis, splitboards, long hikes, ankle protection, rocks... List of advantages of HB is pretty long.

And then, of course, there's always the "Hard Attack"...

[Bordy]

How did I get myself into defending the hardboot BC riding? I pretty much suck of-piste... George, Dave, PhilW and few othrs are probably the right ones for this, but here it goes:

Kicking-in the steps, crampons, aproach skis, splitboards, long hikes, ankle protection, rocks... List of advantages of HB is pretty long.

And then, of course, there's always the "Hard Attack"...

I said earlier in same post.

"With the exception of some mountaineering aplications with a split board there is no need to ride hardboots off piste or really on piste with any freeride-freestyle shape but you can do it all you want and have fun with it.

I spent 4+ years working as an instructor at the Army mountain warfare school..... 3/172 mountain infantry Jerico VT, Cortina and Dobicao Italy, Val Cartia Canada, Denali AK.... I wore plastic boots then not now. I covered the mountaineering aspect.

If some one is paying for you to fly to the top your a pro.... If you have to vs want to walk your not....

Big differance.......

I know the benifits and also the cons........

[Dave*]

Ola all, it's been a while since I have posted.

Here are a few of my thoughts on the topic, take with several grains of salt, my only claim to any form of profesionalism is in the category of gear whore.

As to hardboots on a freeride board I say go for it , its one of my favorite ways to go if you are not sure of condtions to expect or who you are going to ride with, ie skiers that like to drag the only boarder thru god only knows what,

There are a few caveats to HBs on a freeride, a fat guy like myself on a super soft flex with plates n HBs will be likely in for some board destruction if ridden with gusto, not to much of a problem on stiffer BX style decks.

Again boiling down to personal preference but my personal preference leans to a softer/medium flex in my boots, never could get happy in Raichle/Deeluxe in lock down mode, the RAB just put me with to much forward lean so rode in walk mode most of the time, finally got around to plunking some BTS in my Raichles and have never been happier, ( blue springs, one turn preload top n bottom, boot cuff to neutral)

My own experience has shown to myself that unmodified TD1s are a bit much for most FR/BX decks, modded okay, TD2s with yellow pads work great, Trident Rattraps are good, and my personal favorite for off piste riding the old burton race plate ( just keep an eyeball on em for signs of fatigue in the key areas), I have voile split board plate binders but do not trust for riding, they live on my approach skis.

I have no problem riding any of the snowboard HBs off piste or on a FR/BX deck as long as I dont have to walk to much. My list of probs with Raichle/deeluxe for hiking are

-the heel and toe pads wear out to quickly

-the buckle design pops open then tighten if you post hole

-the bevel on the heel n toe make for slightly slippery kick stepping

-(none of those are a problem if using approach skiis, and if I had em like Boris said crampons would fit)

For actual hiking type scenarios ( and for me the furthest out I will go is Whistler near country, Dave* is lazy!!) I use Nordica TR12s my personal favorite AT boot , and in a mere coincedence size 28 mondo SB series are within a mm or so of the 27/27.5 shell TR12s so flipping back n forth with boots is very easy from day to day, using AT boots solves the aforementioned problems for a slight decrease in performance on groomed piste riding ( if only we could scab a BTS onto the ass end of a set of TR12s)

I only sort of know one ex proffesional who competed at Nagano , he does a lot of BC stuff and does it on softies, he does have the option of going hard or soft.

Having said that in my previous seasons up in whistler alot of the better riders up there bashing the HBs have never actually ridden them ever period, my motto dont knock it till you've tried it ( unless of course its snowblades I think we are alllowed to make fun of those)

A lot of the newer gen "soft boots" keep getting stiffer and stiffer each year to the point at which some of the salomon soft boots seem to have the same flex as a set Raichle 413s. Hmmmmmm what are they trying to accomplish.

Now while I will admit to breaking more than a few parts on Raichle HBs, however my own personal failure rate of boots/bindings is much lower than the average soft boot binding of which the straps and high back seem to be the weak link.

Give it a try, experiment with as much different gear as you can, eventually you will find that " sweet spot" of gear and settings , what works for rider A may not work for rider B.

I personally feel there is something about the "pros" not using the gear they want due to contractual issues/paychecks, every back country photo in a magazine is a paycheck is it not, also riding a snowmobile(prefered mode of BC transpo for the pros is it not) in HBs is not optimal , softies kick butt for that(is what my brother wears while sled necking, his quote" I can go faster up hill than you can come down"), I also seem to remember something about some euro BXers being ordered to ride in softies.

As to the ski boot vs HB I can't comment as I do not know how to ski but AT boots work just fine for boarding.

Excuse my run on sentences and punctuation, it's to bloody hot to think straight.

Dave*

[BlueB]

I said earlier in same post.

"With the exception of some mountaineering aplications with a split board there is no need to ride hardboots off piste or really on piste with any freeride-freestyle shape but you can do it all you want and have fun with it.

...

If some one is paying for you to fly to the top your a pro.... If you have to vs want to walk your not....

Big differance.......

Well, earlier on I also said:

"Majority of serious backcountry riders (non-pros) are on AT boots / mounteneering plastic boots. "

So we are pretty much talking different applications...

To me it's even irrelevant what pros are riding, as they are minority and are paid to influence the public to use what manufacturers whant to sell. So it boils down to what is rally good for average Joe who would hike for his turns.

[kjl]

Jeremy Jones has a +M background

What is +M?

There are just way to many benifits to a soft supple set up in soft snow.

I agree - soft boots in soft snow. You get much more flexibility in the hips, knees and ankles that all free up when your ankles are freed up, and the trade-off of having less power on the edge is made irrelevant because you're not really using your edge in soft snow anyways. Plus you get better short-lever fine motor control over the angle of your board using your ankles.

A snowboard hard boot should be firm for and aft while providing dampness laterally and medally.

I am genuinely curious why you prefer snowboard boots to be like this. I have always thought it would be the other way (soft fore-aft, stiff laterally), but most of the really good riders I've met at the SES like having softness laterally (to the point where many of them will not ride bomber step-ins because they are too stiff laterally).

[Rob Stevens]

I'm usually off a sled in the BC, so I'll always go soft.

Watching someone try to stay on the running boards with a plastic sole can be pretty funny, unless it's your sled they're ragging on.

If I was to go the approach ski route, I'd give a try to something like those old Nordicas with the AT upper and Vibram sole. The plate interface would be compact and handy.

Personally, I would say that I've ridden soft boots that were too stiff (Sims "Fall line) and hards that were too soft (older Raichles), so it should really depend on the boot you're rocking whn it comes to ease of movement.

I don't buy the "Marketing killed HB's in the BC" thing... Most people are too lazy to get their turns in the long approach manner. Mostly, they're walking out of bounds (front country), riding sleds, or in helis or cats. The hardcores here who get it the hard way are doing it pretty slick in their plate setups, it's just that most people don't do it that way and therefore will go the "normal" route.

Soft.

[crucible]

I'd have to heartily agree with Rob on the backcountry thing.

My non-backcountry riding friends always scratch their heads when I invite them on a trip, and the conversation usually ends along the lines of,

"Seven to eight hours of hiking in the snow for only ONE run? ONE RUN? WTF dude, can't we borrow a sled from someone????$%&?"

When you then tell them that to make it "sporting", you'll be lending them a harness, crampons, ice tools, ropes and pickets to protect them from crevasses and other objective hazards, they tend to make tracks so fast that there's skid marks....

[Neil Gendzwill]

What is +M?

Cross-M, Jerry Masterpool's coaching/training organization.

[Guest J Herb]

Does any one have access to the old Burton 3.5 degree cant plates? They are black plastic circular discs, with an aluminum center, with black ribs radiating out from the center. About 8 inches around (perfect circle).

[crucible]

On a side note, Bordy, when did you serve in NWTC?

I spent two summer seasons up in Fort Wainwright in AK ('95 & '96), on a Parks Canada exchange on Denali, where I worked a lot with the ANG.... good times, and I really appreciated the racoon eye tans from being on glaciers for a summer.