Are 4 buckle boots the cause of most injuries?

[Spiny Norman]

Hi,

Exept for catastrophic binding failures most of the injuries seem to about burying the board nose into soft snow.

HAve these injuries occurred mostly on tall, stiff, 4 buckle boots?

Would three buckle boots be just low and soft enough to not over tourque the legs?

I managed to bury the nose on my freestyle board but had soft stepins and was able flex my way through the ensuing somersault.

This sounds a lot like the releasable/non-relaesable binding discussion on telemarktips.com where big boots and nonreleasing bindings are, mostly, acknowledged as a liability.

Thanks, Spencer

[Vandalrob08]

Well actually from my experience and others most of the time overloading the nose doesnt come from torquing your legs too much though that is part of it. Actually that comes from being to far forward through the entire turn. So more so it is a form issue. When you are to far forward in most situations you are putting too much pressure in the wrong portion of the board. A smooth turn should compile a smooth weight transfer throughout the entire length of the board from initiation to exit of the turn. They actually have five buckle boots and boot height definitely isnt an issue on this subject. More so a form issue from rider to rider.

[bobdea]

I'm willing to bet with thre buckle boots you'd see more ankle injuries, four buckle= tib fib injuries I'd think

softboots=ankles and knees again this is a guess

[Guest blitzkraig]

I'm a recent convert to hardboots after severely breaking my ankle in soft boots about 18 months ago. I've just survived my first season back, and find the hardboots protect my new titanium hardware well, not to mention finally understanding what edges are for.

Personally I doubt 3 or 4 buckles make much of a difference - boot fit and boot stiffness probably have more impact. I can understand telemarkers finding nonrelease an issue - kind of like twisting the legs off a roast chicken.

[tex1230]

Are 4 buckle boots the cause of most injuries?

No. Crashing and Stupidity are the cause of most injuries.

Didn't we just have a thread about this?

I guess it's summer already

[Bullwings]

hehe, looks like someone's already feeling the effects of the snow melting.

I can't say statistically, but I do know one thing based on my own injury and talking to the medical staff.

I had a tib/fib fracture. On the same day, three skiers came in with tib/fib fractures of some sort also. There was a lot of fresh snow that day, mammoth reported 10 inches of freshies for the day.

Hospital staff said that they really weren't too surprised based on the conditions. I think part of it is just luck and chance.

[bumpyride]

More flex throughout the Board/Binding/Boot interface.

Last thread was relegated to discussing the issue of boots in the walk mode when it should have been all three. Anytime you have the tibula/fibula that serves as the fulcrum point, it's that point that is going to see the most pressure placed on it. Anything that you can do to introduce flex into the system will decrease the pressure at that point and absorb some of the force applied at the fulcrum.

Archimedes Quote Give me a lever long enough and a fulcrum on which to place it, and I shall move the world. Tib/fib don't stand a chance when you have a long lever (6' guy, 6' board) in a crash exerting all that force against one fixed point.

Yes, crashing, stupidity and bad luck are causes of most injuries, but what's the harm in ameliorating the affects of those. Can you say "seatbelt.

[Dave ESPI]

Hi guys, um I was thinking if I put a bungie cord on the back of my board and attach it to a belt around my waist, I could almost prevent any sort of injury when the nose of the board goes into the snow...........

Gah ! Injuries are going to happen no matter what.... Just be smart, and hang the board up in the wrong conditions, and keep some soft boots and a proper board for the conditions around and a LOT of your problems go away.

[Spiny Norman]

Okay then, yes people are stupid, and there is such a thing as bad luck, and good form and not falling are the best prevention but... How much more likely is it that a taller, stiffer boot is going to be trouble since you are, theoretically, clamped onto your board anyways. And pretty likely to fall sooner or later.

I think I'd like to go to AT boots for backcountry splitboarding next season as my ankles are shot. I'm trying to get a sense of the relative safety of lower v. taller cuffs. If there is any.

So basically what Bumpyride said.

Thanks for the responses.

- SPencer

[vapor]

your going to feel more strain in the ankles with a lower cuff boot in the backcountry but there is the bonus of being lighter for skinnin

[philw]

I don't know, but it's sunny outside and I'm inside, so...

I think that it's going to be hard to collect statistics on something like this. You could look at all accidents across all disciplines (such as the risk management people at a resort see) and try to deduce something from that, but anything less is not going to help much: it's all self-selected anecdote.

That said... my only injury in twenty years boarding on piste and in the back country was a nose-bury in the back country. That is the type of injury mentioned here, but not the type of conditions (back country crappy untracked) or the type of board (powder board) you'd likely be thinking of. The boots were standard Rachlie race snowboard boots, fastened up of course.

In order to break my ankle I had to first blow the side of the boot out. Specifically, to blow away the crappy cant mechanism in those 224s (or whatever the top-of-the-range stiffy boot was called).

So from my anecdote, I'd say that the "stiffness" of the boot, or even if it was fastened or not, made no difference as I was going to destroy whatever was between my ankle and where it was going.

You could argue, on a snowless sunny day at least, that I only got into the position when this happened because I was riding race gear. It's a fair point, and impossible to prove either way.

I suppose some people would like to say "race gear is safer", and some others would like to say "park/ pipe gear is safer". And then what - suggest that the other lot is silly because of this? But that's incorrect - I don't care which is "safer" statistically or otherwise.

Big boots and non-releasable bindings aren't a liability as far as I can tell. If you race FIS speed you'll be forced to wear big boots and use releasable bindings. I like to ride halfway-fast, and I'm half-way there with my big boots. Overall it sounds about right.

I do think that most snowboard equipment *is* a liability, but not particularly for safety reasons ;-)

[BlueB]

...

HAve these injuries occurred mostly on tall, stiff, 4 buckle boots?

...

Would three buckle boots be just low and soft enough to not over tourque the legs?

...

This sounds a lot like the releasable/non-relaesable binding discussion on telemarktips.com where big boots and nonreleasing bindings are, mostly, acknowledged as a liability.

Facts:

Snowboarding is a liability in general.

Non-releasable bindings are a liability.

Releasable bindings on a snowboard, that are not sincronised to release simultaniously are even greater liability.

Physics:

Short boots:

Your foot/ankle is more likely to move, therefore ankle injury is more likely than on tall boots.

Assuming that ankle is safe, the lever between two other potential points of failure is longer (knee to tib/fib at the top of the cuff), so tib/fib fracture is more likely than on tall boots.

Tall boots:

Lever between knee and cuff top is shorter, so tib/fib fracture is less likely, you'll rather over torque/ripp the knee.

Providing that your knee and shin survived, the lever on point of failure on the boot (cuff to lover boot assembly) is greater, so that point might fail. Sudden pressure and missalignment of the ankle could result in geater injury than if this happened gradually.

Boris

[BlueB]

Just from my recent gear changes / mild injuries experience:

I normally use ski boots. Tried LeMans, hated them, switched back to ski boots.

Recently I switched from Nordicas 881 to Dalbello CarveX (exactelly the same boot as Head Stratos, but with DIN blocks, very sweet!). Dalbellos are tighter fitting, flexier when not locked and have lower cuffs. They have Ski (locked), Walk and Carve (similar to Delluxe Powder mode) modes.

In the begining I used them in Walk or Carve mode, fwd and rear. While riding a big bad board, I overloaded (or stuffed, who knows?) the nose. My fwd shinn survived and the board wouldn't give in (props to Prior) but rather launched me in carthweel. Later I realised that I overflexed the fwd ankle and it was sore right to the end of the season.

Later I started riding with fwd locked and rear in carve mode. Couple of times I lost the toe edge while almost fully laid over, that resulted in board skip-jumping on the snow. My rear shinn got really banged, but not the surface bruise, rather some deep pain, felt like the bone). This also staid to the end of the season. I still feel it on a bad day...

To me it is significant that both injuries happened on the unlocked boot.