Knee pain from over training or Toe lift

[Bobby Buggs]

Anyone come up with knee pain from over training. I have been busting ars getting ready for the session. Major time on the Cybex Elliptical and other things low impact. But I found the last 2 time out my Front knee was really sore after riding. Now I have some history with that knee, 4 scopes during the 90s but No issues since then.

I thought in might be my recently added toe lift, but I went to see my friend who owns a PT firm. He said my training made my quads so tight it was causing knee cap irritation and that stretching woudl make it subside.

I wonder if the Toe lift amplified this. Any comments from some of the less flexible folks like me? Yeah Im old

[Mike T]

I have two arthritic knees, induced in part by unbalanced quads which in turn were pulling my patellas (plural of patella? anyone?) off track for years. Focusing on the insides to bring them back in balance has helped a ton. (And regular but not particularly frequent care from a spots chiro - flame retardant suit on - it works for me) I can go 40000+ vert in a day and my knees only hurt a little afterwards, not at all during. No idea whatsoever if this is applicable to you but I thought I'd share it anywyas.

[Bobby Buggs]

NO you are right on with the Patella issues, I have that big time because of my poor flexability.

Just wondering if the Toe lift may have any impact.

[Mike T]

NO you are right on with the Patella issues, I have that big time because of my poor flexability.

Just wondering if the Toe lift may have any impact.

On that, I don't have anything to offer. I personally use a flat front foot and 3* pure lift in back, but also contributing to my body issues is a noticably short right (back) femur.

I am actually quite flexible - stretching often does help - that that flexibility seems to help me avoid knee pain (as well as lets me really angulate at the hips, not that I do it as much as I should all the time!). My doc and chiro have really encouraged me to back off on the outer-quad building exercises, ride my road bike a gear lower than I normally would, and concentrate on more balanced quads. I can't leg press as much as I used to but my riding is better for sure. Since my insurance is stiongy about MRI's I can't really track the deterioration in the knee without spending $$$, but it feels a lot better now than it did the last half of last season, that's for sure.

[philfell]

If it's only a minor amount of toe lift, I doubt it have anything to do with it. It is a common occurance for athletic people to get over developed quads (compared to the rest of thier body) this can sometimes cause your IT band to tighten up.

A good, but very painfull cure......Put a Nalgene bottle on the floor lay on it on your side start at your hip and slide your body on top of it down to your knee and back to your hip. Do this a few times on each leg every night and your pain should go away. It will probably bring tears to your eyes the first few times, but as your IT band streaches out it gets less painfull.

[trailertrash]

If it's only a minor amount of toe lift, I doubt it have anything to do with it. It is a common occurance for athletic people to get over developed quads (compared to the rest of thier body) this can sometimes cause your IT band to tighten up.

A good, but very painfull cure......Put a Nalgene bottle on the floor lay on it on your side start at your hip and slide your body on top of it down to your knee and back to your hip. Do this a few times on each leg every night and your pain should go away. It will probably bring tears to your eyes the first few times, but as your IT band streaches out it gets less painfull.

a little less painful (not much) is to use a trigger point massage ball sold here. I have one and use it for all types of issues/injuries.

Where exactly in your knee is the pain?

[Ernie00]

You might want to balance your Quads exercices with hamstring exercices also. I find for me it helps to lower my knee pain when I do so.

Most of us, snowboarder / skiier have super strong quads but really weak Hamstrings.

[wavechaser]

I just had an MRI on my left knee, because this summer it started to bother me when I'd crouch down for a time and then try to stand up. I was worried about cartilage damage, torn meniscus etc., but all they found was some very minor fluid buildup in the joint and behind the patella. It was diagnosed as Chondomalaycia. Caused by exactly what is being discussed above - quads so strong they are pulling the patella to the outside and causing the problem. Cure has been PT twice a week to balance out leg muscle strength and 600mg Ibuprofen twice a day.

[powell1.8]

I just had an MRI on my left knee, because this summer it started to bother me when I'd crouch down for a time and then try to stand up. I was worried about cartilage damage, torn meniscus etc., but all they found was some very minor fluid buildup in the joint and behind the patella. It was diagnosed as Chondomalaycia. Caused by exactly what is being discussed above - quads so strong they are pulling the patella to the outside and causing the problem. Cure has been PT twice a week to balance out leg muscle strength and 600mg Ibuprofen twice a day.

That is exactly what I have going on. I have to crouch down a lot, and after a couple of minutes, my knee will hurts for quite a while. I feel dumb, but what is PT?

[wavechaser]

That is exactly what I have going on. I have to crouch down a lot, and after a couple of minutes, my knee will hurts for quite a while. I feel dumb, but what is PT?

PT = Physical Therapy. In my case it is to strengthen the muscles which oppose my quads, so the pull on the kneecap (patella) is even. But I don't recommend you self-diagnose...if it really bothers you, see a doctor, and get an MRI if they feel it is called for.

[Pat Donnelly]

Buggs - what are your angles set at on your A.M?

Try a few runs at lower settings 55/50 or 50/45 and just ride relaxed, more freestylish / upright. A little less driving with the knees might help. You may be better off with the A.M. in Aspen as your 184 Rossi responds to muscle and drive.

[Bobby Buggs]

Buggs - what are your angles set at on your A.M?

Try a few runs at lower settings 55/50 or 50/45 and just ride relaxed, more freestylish / upright. A little less driving with the knees might help. You may be better off with the A.M. in Aspen as your 184 Rossi responds to muscle and drive.

Im at 60 front and 55 rear. I am not sure I can ride more upright/relaxed and not drive with my knees. Maybe in Aspen but not here in the land of porcelian.

I have a couple weeks to work on that IT band and quad stretch. Hopefully it will calm down in time for the session.

[Bobby Buggs]

Used a pool noodle to stretch the IT band tonight, DAMN that hurt, I could actually feel it in my knee.

[dbrsb]

Wavechaser. See a doc and a PT. They can diagnose which muscles are too strong or weak. And then you in for stretching and balancing muscles.

dbrsb

[lonerider]

Used a pool noodle to stretch the IT band tonight, DAMN that hurt, I could actually feel it in my knee.

If you can feel in your knee that is "good" stretch, you won't break anything (although it feels like it). Of course, it means your IT band is pretty tight, but that is true for virtually anyone.

I had the same type of knee pain due to over-built quads and do a lot of hamstring exercises, self-massaging and stretching and the problem went away mostly.

Actually, do you have flat feet? My flat feet lead to over-pronation, which causes me knees to turn inward, forcing me to unconsciously tense my outer quads to compensate and aggravating the ITB. I highly recommend Sole Support orthotics over any vacuum-molded footbed like superfeet and even my beloved Surefoot footbeds.

[Bobby Buggs]

Im going to do a remold of some thermoflex at a good fitter in vermont on sunday. I wil have him check out what my feet are up to then. Thanks for that insight

[tdifan_2003]

Wow, I could not believe it how many people actually have that. I am jumping in this thread instaed of opening a new one.

So, knee pains are actually quite common around ;).

I am looking for the causes of mine. I started snowboarding back in Europe in 1994. Due to moving accross the big water and all the consquences of that ;), I could not snowboard for a while. 3 years ago I started running. Never ran before that seriously. Now I am doing marathons - PB 3:16. Missed qualifing for Boston by 9 seconds - bummer :). I thought I was in pretty good shape. As far as muscles are concerned (and lungs) I think I am. Though, last year in Vail, after 2 days, my front knee started hurting big time. I had just gotten a 173 RT (up from 168). After those 2 days, I gave up on the RT and rode a 159 SPline - thru a lot of pains. After we came back home, I rested the knee from board + running for 2 weeks and the whole summer everything was fine.

Now thsi year, after just one day on a small slope - same story - front (right) knee is acting up. I have been stretching after each run and I run about 30 miles/week.

Now about the set up - RT 168, Catek OS2, 47/52 degrees with 4 degrees heel and 3 - toe lift. Beofre I read the article from the canadian site, i did have very little cant - like 1 dgree on front and back foot. After I checked my knees - well, bummer again - I can put 2 1/2 fingers between my knees.

I

SInce than, I have removed all canting and left the lifts. We are going to Vail next week and I will report how it feels with different set ups.

After all, we have solve this knees issues, dont we ;).

Thanks for listening!

Millen

[powell1.8]

This might sound weird, but I actually canted my front binding slightly forward. I couldn't really say how much, just slightly. I tried this because when I would be standing with my heelside uphill my inner knee on the front foot always felt stressed. It seemed to have helped. Most of my knee pain is gone. Only every now and again do I get a small twinge.

[Dr D]

If its a structural misalignment the custom soft orthotic route will help stabilize it

An adjustment from a good chiropractor will fix it.

If its muscular imbalance working the countering muscles and stretching the quad will help. PT can prescribe exact exercises.

If its binding setup as little as 3 degrees change may help and varied cant changes as well. check your boot cant settings if the cuffs are canted to much or not enough it can strain your knees as well.

If its very painful all the time get an MRI taken.

you can also get a variety of soft braces to hold the patella in position and force it to track properly.

[pebu]

I prettymuch always have a little knee problem. Whether its when I'm getting up from crouching down or just sitting in the car for long times.

What I've resorted to is a couple of those neoprene braces (closed patella, it's just a neoprene sleeve) when I snowboard and it is just amazing at how much of a difference it makes.

[tdifan_2003]

Got that one already. last year from Gart in Dillon :). It does work...........somehow, but again, I think I have to work towards the cause of the knee pain first.

[powell1.8]

I have two neoprene kneebraces one plain one and a more burley one for my front knee, with support stringers. They are the best thing I have ever purchased for boarding. No knee soreness after riding. I really just think it's the added warmth around my knee that helps the most. Check it out there cheap.

[tdifan_2003]

Where did you find the neoprene braces with the stingers? I think, this might be a very good thing to have. Mine is just plane neoprene.

[Guest dragon fly jones]

Would be some sort of muscular imbalance.

You can have quads of steel but if your hammy and core are weak it will cause problems at the knee.

As a coach we address those problems on a regular basis. Working the ham and quads usually address knee pain issues.

Secondly it indeed could be a alignment issue or taken a step further it could be an issue from over use or an exsisting condition that is being aggrivated by body, binding, boot alignment. Many causes and many solutions.

You see the various knee issues throughout sport and most pulls and strains are from a lack of balance muscles some where below the navel.

[powell1.8]

I found my knee braces at Sports authority. Dick's sporting goods has them too. Mc David makes the one with stringers. It also velco's at the top and bottom. I wasn't sure it would be comfortable on the lifts, with my knee bent all the time, but I have had no problems. They also have some with hard plastic alignment hinges, but that seemed like overkill to me. I really think for me it is mostly the added warmth. When I pull them off in the parking lot they are steaming. I won't ride without them now.