Unsure whether I've bought the right size boot

[Guest Crosbie]

I've just got some 28 Deeluxe Indys with thermofit liners. They've not been outdoors yet.

Now, my foot measures 27.6, but in fear of repeating my existing problem of black toe-nail I couldn't help but ignore the rules of rounding down, and err on the larger size.

I've had the liners cooked and fitted (and new standard footbeds) and the fitter was in two minds as to whether the 28 wasn't outside my range. He said even if the 28s feel tight around the ball, a pair of 27.5s could have been expanded to fit.

I have some heel lift, i.e. my heel doesn't feel gripped, but then it doesn't really lift that much, perhaps 3-5mm.

The question is, should I pack these boots back up and flog 'em (or perhaps get a part/whole refund) and get the 27.5s, or would the 27.5s in all likelihood have disadvantages in other respects?

Am I likely to get joy from boots that are slightly too large? Or is this a fool's errand?

[Bullwings]

that's probably not a good sign, especially since your liners are going to pack out a bit over the next few days of riding, which will result in a looser fit.

i ended up spraining my ankle that way.

did you do a shell fit? put your foot into the boot without the liner. then touch your toes to the tip of the boot. you should have two fingers of space between your heel and the boot, anymore than that is probably too much.

still, there's a bunch of stuff that can be done to tighten the boot a bit. other than that, i'm not too sure. you'll probably have to make several trips back to your boot fitter.

try them out, ride for a bit, and get a feel for the boots. then, go back to your boot fitter, tell them what you don't like, and get it fixed. then, go ride again, and repeat the process as necessary.

all i know is that the concensus here has generally been that a boot that is a little too small is better than one that is a little too big.

[Guest Crosbie]

Thanks Bullwings for prompt reply.

I did do the shell fit. I got about 1.7 fingers behind my heel, i.e. probably more than 1.5, but no way could I get two fingers.

[Kent]

27.0

.

[Guest Crosbie]

Kent, are you suggesting that I should have got a size 27, let alone 27.5?

[peter_x]

Why not just try to expand the toe area of the liner?

[Guest Crosbie]

I have a good fit up front. It's the heel area that's a tad light.

I'm more interested to know whether an unused boot that's appear's to be a good fit, although probably slightly too large at the heel end, should not be worn at all. Or, if the smaller size is probably a whole 1cm shorter, but with a notionally thinner liner, and while gripping my heel well, could be on the short size and tight round the ball - whether the 27.5s would be bound to be such a better fit, that no matter what, I should ditch the 28s.

I guess I'm wondering if I've made a big mistake, or whether it's just a little one, and I'll probably get by just fine.

[kipstar]

27 and 27.5 is the same shell, most likely, different liner.

I'd say you definitely sound like your boot is going to be too big. Should be almost swelteringly tight the first day or so, and then starts to pack out; otherwise, it IS going to be too big within 10 days.

Go a size down I'd say. You are just as likely to get black toe; mostly that is cuased by the foot sliding forward in the boot; otherwise you can just smash the foam with a hammer to pack it out if it is a compression thing. And sliding forward in the boot happens when your boot is too big or not fitting right iMHO.

[peter_x]

I have a good fit up front. It's the heel area that's a tad light.

I'm more interested to know whether an unused boot that's appear's to be a good fit, although probably slightly too large at the heel end, should not be worn at all. Or, if the smaller size is probably a whole 1cm shorter, but with a notionally thinner liner, and while gripping my heel well, could be on the short size and tight round the ball - whether the 27.5s would be bound to be such a better fit, that no matter what, I should ditch the 28s.

I guess I'm wondering if I've made a big mistake, or whether it's just a little one, and I'll probably get by just fine.

Sorry, I meant expand the smaller boots (since you said you had black toenail). I would try that.

[yyzcanuck]

I did do the shell fit. I got about 1.7 fingers behind my heel, i.e. probably more than 1.5, but no way could I get two fingers.

I can put two of my fingers behind my wife's heel on her boots, she can put three. Finger test just isn't a reliable indicator because people simply have different size fingers, they use different fingers (ie: ring, second, little) and the finger may be compressed more (or less) depending on how hard it is to jam them in there!

An experienced boot fitter can often use the 'finger test' because he or she has a feel for it. I prefer to measure the foot, speak to the rider regarding his/her expectations, discuss fit issues they've had in the past and at the very least tell them their options (shell expansion is cheaper than returning boots that are too large).

For what it's worth... Kent has nailed the boot fit debate on more than one occasion.

[tex1230]

are you using any kind of footbed?

I have had a lot of issues with bootfit - and the one thing that consistently helps is the custom insoles. they help prevent black toe by keeping your foot from sliding forward on heelside turns, slamming the toe into the end of the boot.

[yyzcanuck]

are you using any kind of footbed?

I have had a lot of issues with bootfit - and the one thing that consistently helps is the custom insoles. they help prevent black toe by keeping your foot from sliding forward on heelside turns, slamming the toe into the end of the boot.

Indeed, the footbed helps with black toe nail. Part of this can be attributed to the foot being slightly longer when the arch is compressed, so the arch support of a good footbed helps prevent that from happening.

Something I've noticed about footbeds though.. when molding thermoliners with footbeds, you need to ensure the liner is pulled up enough around the heel area to allow the "L" shaped inserts of the liners to be properly placed. Too low and they really hurt.

[Mike T]

Indeed, the footbed helps with black toe nail. Part of this can be attributed to the foot being slightly longer when the arch is compressed, so the arch support of a good footbed helps prevent that from happening.

In my case, "slightly longer" is a full cm

(Prompted to measure both ways my Michelle a month ago... she said my foot length measurement and size choice made no sense... when I measure on my footbeds, it does make sense!)

Something I've noticed about footbeds though.. when molding thermoliners with footbeds, you need to ensure the liner is pulled up enough around the heel area to allow the "L" shaped inserts of the liners to be properly placed. Too low and they really hurt.

Been there, done that - ouch! I personally find that wearing the sock *over* the footbed during molding helps get this right, and it also keeps you properly positioned on the footbed during the molding process.

[peter_x]

I can put two of my fingers behind my wife's heel on her boots, she can put three. Finger test just isn't a reliable indicator because people simply have different size fingers, they use different fingers (ie: ring, second, little) and the finger may be compressed more (or less) depending on how hard it is to jam them in there!

An experienced boot fitter can often use the 'finger test' because he or she has a feel for it. I prefer to measure the foot, speak to the rider regarding his/her expectations, discuss fit issues they've had in the past and at the very least tell them their options (shell expansion is cheaper than returning boots that are too large).

For what it's worth... Kent has nailed the boot fit debate on more than one occasion.

My bootfitter uses a wooden rod - a lot easier to stick down there than a hand.

[Guest Crosbie]

Ok, I tried the 28s out.

After the expected agony of wearing them in, the fronts turned very comfortable, but then I also had really bad heel lift. After half a day's use I realised that despite enjoying a glimpse of far superior control to soft boots (reminiscent of my ski boots), I had the wrong size boots.

Bummer.

So, I'll now be buying 27s. An expensive way of trying boots out for size...

The 28s are listed for sale here:

http://www.bomberonline.com/VBulletin/showthread.php?t=14794

I'll be handing out 'told-u-so' points to all those who richly deserve them. ;-)

Kent, you were right.

[zoltan]

You might even want to consider size 26. My feet are 27.3 and 27.8, and I had heel lift with even the 27s. I bought the 26, had a bunch of work done to them, and am now extremely happy with them. Just uncomfortable when I put them on, but perfect after the first run or two. Great heel hold and just a good, snug fit all the way around.

It sounds like these are your first hard boots. Did the black toe nail thing happen with a pair of soft boots?

[Guest Crosbie]

26?? Wow!

Given there was only a 2-2.5cm heel gap inside the 28.0 boot without liner (for me), that would mean some pretty compressed foam.

I think I'm going to place my next bet on lucky 27.0.

(You may still be right of course - I may end up being Deeluxe's customer of the year for '07. )

My 27.5 ski boots are the one's that gave me black toenail. I had to cut them right back to minimise it. I guess I could have tried thermoflex liners on 'em...

Now on sale here:

http://www.bomberonline.com/VBulletin/showthread.php?t=14794

[Guest Crosbie]

Ok, I've just got my Indy 28.0 boots back (transported back to me via friend's car - cheaper&easier).

I've done another shell test, and I think I used my fingers width-ways on my first shell test. Using more scientific methods it now looks like there's about a 3cm gap at the heel. Space for a 2.9cm dia cylinder, but not enough for a 3.3cm cylinder.

Given Zoltan's comments on size 26, and Chadx's experience here: http://www.bomberonline.com/VBulletin/showthread.php?t=14813

I think I'm going to go for the 26s next.

I presume if there's 3cm gap on 28s that 26s at 2 sizes down makes it 1cm.

So, now I guess I need to know under what criteria do I not even attempt to mold the liners of the next pair? What's the minimum shell gap at the heel for Thermoflex?

[felix]

I'm at 0.5cm in a 325 Raichle with Thermoflex - This ment I had to cut away the front part of the liner. It's working great though now. C'ant possibly go one size smaller anymore.

Whithout Thermoflex its easier to fit in.

[Guest Crosbie]

I now have a pair of Indy 26s with Thermoflex liners.

With a pen of 8mm diameter at heel I can wiggle my big toe a tad.

With a rod of 10mm diameter my toe is bent against the front.

This will be about half my finger's thickness (15mm).

Can anyone tell me where an 8mm heel gap comes in a shell test?

1) Definite failure - should be at least 15mm

2) Borderline fail - likely to need boots blowing out

3) Uncertain - could be far too small/narrow round front of foot

4) Borderline pass - probably ok if wide enough

5) Perfect fit likely

6) Slightly too big?!

[felix]

I'ld put it at 4.

You will fit in, more easy or less depending on the width of your foot.

The problem with Thermoflex is that it is very thick in the front. I just cut away enough material of the Thermoflex til I fitted in. Cut the material away before heating it up!

You will get to value the first buckle - only once it is properly closed you cannot slip forward with your toes against the shell anymore.

For me its about the same size, if not smaller.

[felix]

Oh, Indy is way way way wider than 325 old series - so it should be easier. In case you can still blow out (You might have the bootfitter start blowing out at the heel and then front

[Kent]

It depends on how your foots flattens out (pronates) and how much effect the insole with have....

I measure 27.5, I wear 25.0 boots.

As for your black toenails, cut them really short before the season and you can slowly trim shorter.

[Guest Crosbie]

Thanks felix & Kent,

It sounds like it's not a case of "Send them back immediately" then?

I'll take them to Precision Ski in Val d'Isere in a few weeks' time. Presumably they'll do the shell test themselves before offering their own opinion as to whether I should keep the boots or send 'em back and get 27s.

I managed to get my foot in the liner whilst in the boot, and it felt very scrunched up.

I hope this is a good sign.

My feet (with ski socks) measure 275 & 276mm, so I'm very impressed that Kent can get into 25s. I think even the shell of a 25 would be too small for 275.

[Guest Crosbie]

Ok, I took my Indy 26s to the very nice and friendly chaps in Precision Ski's bootfitting shop in Val d'Isere.

Given my feet they suggested a 27 would be a 'comfort fit', but that a 26 would be a 'performance fit', and didn't really have much to offer beyond that.

Anyway, what with everyone's advice here, I figured the 26 was probably the better side to err upon. So I had the liners molded and took the 26s out on the piste.

2-3 days of agony.

4th day some light appeared at the end of the tunnel.

5th day there were actually times when I forgot to take the opportunity to undo the straps.

6th day I'm thinking the boots are probably a better size than 27s would have been.

So, a fair bit of widthways snugness/constriction around the ball of the foot. I wonder if this will reduce or whether I should consider blowing some width in?

A positive longitudinal pressure on the big toe, to compress the toe joints, but not bend them.

No sign of black-nail yet (3 days since use), but then my nails were well trimed (as a precaution).

Otherwise, perhaps after a little more packing out, I can stop thinking about the feet, and start remembering how to carve. I've enjoyed the far greater support and edge hold, but haven't got my shoulder's very near the snow yet.