dehydration

[kipstar]

I'd live my top half like those guys; bottom half would suffer too much damage from 'hey smile at the camera, you've been kicked in the nuts' action.

Plus then you could have the big pectoral mussels that the womens like. Ah yes, D-Sub you heart throb.

BTW I have been yacht racing the last 2 weeks, so I missed the action; therefore i am still one of the people that doesn't hate you. :-)

[Dan]

Out of interest; who returns to the base lodge for, er, urine relief? I usually either find somewhere in the trees or somewhere off the runs. Is that what you lot do, or do you go to the bathroom?

Trees 90% of the time: they're closer and there's no chance of dropping my gloves on a filthy floor. My friends and I refer to this as "attending a lecture by the noted anthropologist Dr. Richard Leakey."

[skipuppy]

No clue how much Redbull is in the States - I never drank it there

But here in switzerland: 1 swiss franc for Budget's "Energy Drink" which tastes, smells and seems like RB just in a green Migros can. That's maybe 70 cents or something.

[chadx]

Bottled water? That is just bad on so many levels. Throwing away a million empty plastic bottles every day, many of the sources are just municipal water supplies, much of it is filtered no better than what your fridges filter does it, the cost, the insanity of shipping water across the unites states (not to mention from other countries) and the associated waste of fuel to do so, and the list goes on and on.

If carbon and micron filtering (like what your fridge does, or the sink canister filters. Basically remove chlorine and other things that make the water taste funny) doesn't satisfy a person, then go for a Reverse Osmosis system. It will even take out fluoride (please, don't get me started on the absurdity of using a fertilizer-production-biproduct, that happens to be a neurotoxin, to fight tooth decay by ingestion). RO systems are a bit pricey up front ($200), and the $50 filters have to be replaced every year or so, but it is still cheaper than bottled water, you know the quality, and without all the wasted plastic bottles and other problems with the whole bottled water thing.

[D-Sub]

heh

so chad...what do you do about portable water?

isnt distillation better than RO for drinking?

[chadx]

Don't get me wrong. In some instances, bottled water is the best choice. If you are out at a restaurant or on the go, it might be the best source of water rather than some unfiltered tap water they are otherwise offering. I just think that lugging home cases of bottled water from the grocery store is a waste when you could put several different types of filters in your home to avoid throwing away all that plastic, do it way cheaper at home, and possibly avoid throwing out your back lugging around cases of water. :D

In some ways, any type of water is better than no water. If you are scared to drink the water because of what is in it or because of the taste, then you will not drink water, which is the worst thing you can do. So in some ways, you need to filter to satisfy your peace of mind or whatever it takes just to get you to drink it.

What type of filter you use at home is a personal preference thing. If you are pretty sure your tap water is fairly safe, a person might only want a micron and carbon filter to get out the chlorine (or chloramine in some cities) and some of the other junk. If you are on a well and don't test, you don't know what the heck is in there. Even tested city water isn't tested for everything or has a pretty high tolerance for some things that you probably don't really want to drink consistantly.

RO and distilled are the best. There are still a few things about distilled that I'm not too sure about. Lot's of different opinions on that. You definitely don't want to use it if you are fasting or if you are not eating a nutritious diet (because of it's ability to pull minerals, etc out of your system). But that can actually be viewed as a benefit, I'm told, during short turm fasts or cleansings. Basically, if you get a balanced diet otherwise, it should be fine. My other concern about distilled is how, when stored, it picks up carbon dioxide which turns it acidic. You body and blood are slightly alkaline, so hits of acidic cause all types of problems. This is not a huge deal. We eat acidic foods or foods that cause an acidic reaction all the time, but it is one of the concerns with high volumes of distilled water. Oh, and definitely use glass, or at least lexan, to store your water.

RO isn't perfect either, but I tend to like it over the other choices. I haven't had one set up in our new house, yet, so have been drinking (is it true?!) tap water that is micron and carbon filtered. I don't like to waste water but that is a fact with an RO system. For every 1 gallon made, there are so many gallons that go down the drain from the system. Some of the poorer quality systems will dump 10 gallons for every 1. Some of the better ones maybe only 3. Still, I hate to waste any, but such are our daily lives. Full of choices.

There is a ton of research out there on RO and distilled. You can make up your own mind from all of that. It's hard to know what to beleive sometimes. But just realize that the worst thing you can do is let it all overwhelm you and keep you from making a descision. After all, the main goal must be getting yourself to consume more water.

When I was an IT guy for 14 years, it was a lot easier to stay hydrated. I always had water at my desk and would sip it all day. Now that I'm not a cube dweller, I have to consciously think "Hmm, I should drink some water". The easiest way is to fill up a big lexan bottle first thing in the morning and just have it sitting around. If it's there, you will grab it and take a swig now and then. If it's not, it's out of sight, out of mind. That's my take on it anyway.

[Dr D]

Personally RO is a better way to go than distilled with a few specific exceptions. Distilling basically kills the water and removes the good with the bad. Yeah I know rain water is distilled etc but its the process of coming down through the earth and into the aquifer that gives it life. literally according to some research. The bond angles change and it becomes "energized" as it flows down stream particularly through vortex action etc. It also picks up minerals and other good stuff provided it isn't in a polluted area. RO for city water and carry it in a nalgene or similiar bottle. Distilled for fasting etc.

[NateW]

Research causes cancer in laboratory animals.

I used to drink a lot of soda, at some point I stopped and replaced it with orange juice. Then I realized how much sugar/calories is in that stuff too, and switched to water. Now soda tastes horribly sweet and leaves my stomach feeling queasy.

I don't drink while snowboarding, but I always crave water (and chug it) for the rest of the day. This thread gotten me thinking that's a problem I should fix. Thanks for the insight, everybody.

[kipstar]

I drink water from the tap (which apparently is bad in Bangkok since it isn't properly filtered or anything) and never got sick from it. Mind you, bottled water here is very cheap; only about 25c USD for a big bottle; I'm just too lazy to carry it around. Only time I get sick is eating Italian western food :-)

What I would be keen to know is what you give up by not drinking flourinated water.

I apparently (according to each dentist I have had the misfortune to meet after various incidents) have rock hard teeth, never had a cavity, never had a filling.

They claim (here) that it is because i had a lot of flouride as a kid in the water. I know it is nothing to do with milk, as I am allergic to dairy products for the most parts. I also know I was born sick, I get sick all the time and so it isn't because of simply being in great health. I didn't drink softdrinks much as a kid, nor did I eat lots of sugary stuff (mostly because I was sick the whole time).

Surely if you drink bottly water, you miss out on these minerals sometimes?

[chadx]

What I would be keen to know is what you give up by not drinking flourinated water.

I apparently (according to each dentist I have had the misfortune to meet after various incidents) have rock hard teeth, never had a cavity, never had a filling.

They claim (here) that it is because i had a lot of flouride as a kid in the water...

Surely if you drink bottly water, you miss out on these minerals sometimes?

Hi Kipster,

Well, you give up absolutely nothing by NOT drinking fluoridated water. First, though, realize than many bottled water and most mechanical filtration systems do NOT remove fluoride (unfortunately). Distillation and RO will remove or greatly reduce it (thankfully). You are also getting high volumes of fluoride with anything that is made with water (all juices from concentrate if made with fluoridated city water) and it concentrates in meet if it's in their water supply.

I, too, have never had a cavity and, according to dentists, probably never will. The reason? What they call fluorosis. The definition?

"Dental fluorosis is an irreversible condition caused by excessive ingestion of fluoride during the tooth forming years. It is the first visible sign that a child has been overexposed to fluoride. " It is usually found in people that grow up on well water, though many city water systems are so fluoridated, it can happen there as well. And is actually on the rise.

Here is a link explaining why having enough flouride as a kid to cause fluorosis is so bad (even if the side benefit is lack of cavities)

http://fluoridealert.org/dental-fluorosis.htm#text

My case isn't very noticeable, but still, as a kid, I always got teased as if I didn't brush my teeth, etc. Quite the opposite. I was one of the kids that took care of their teeth and never had a cavity. Still, it made me self conscious.

Basically, fluoride is a neuro-toxin, among other things. It's main job in preventing tooth decay is to poison and kill the bacteria in your mouth. That is a topical application only and along the way, you are washing your mouth with a poison. The amount of fluoride in a typical tube of fluoride toothpaste is sufficient to kill a small child if it were consumed all at once. Might as well brush your teeth with mercury, lead, or arsnic. Besides it isn't the fluoride in toothpaste that cleans the teeth. It's the abrasives (like calcium carbonate) that do that. All this put in water when the only possible benefit is only topical and ingesting it does nothing but harm you.

It is a poisonous bi-product of fertilizer production. There is only one study showing tooth decay is reduced by putting it in water and that was from around the 40s I believe. All modern studies in many countries show no benefits. It is banned from water supplies in many countries.

Rather than me type out what is already said elsewhere, take a look at this article. It is but one of many, but the author is very readable and puts it all together in plain english. Yes, it even touches on bottled water (to stick with the thread subject)

http://www.stevepavlina.com/blog/2005/07/whats-the-deal-with-fluoride/

As for not getting enough minerals, if your diet is so poor that you get most of your minerals from water, you have a super poor diet. The mineral thing is an advertisement 'think' by the water companies to get you to shy away from getting a distillery or RO filter and 'making' your own water.

....aaaaaaannnd discuss...:D

[Dr D]

Research causes cancer in laboratory animals.

.

Ain't that the truth:lol: :lol: :lol:

[pebu]

It is usually found in people that grow up on well water, though many city water systems are so fluoridated, it can happen there as well. And is actually on the rise.

Interesting. I grew up on a well and I got quite a few cavities. I realize that flouride is poisonous. It's very similar to chloride... Just as you put to chlorides together to get chlorine, put to flourides together and you get flourine, VERY poisonous. (my chemistry may not be exact, but you get the jist of it...)

Anyhoo, our dentist told us that what flouride does, in very simple terms, is convert the plaque into enamel..

Either way, I wouldn't recommend drinking it. It seems kinda silly that bottled water companies would take water, pull all the minerals that are naturally in it out of it and then take their own minerals and stick them in there again. I can understand if you're in the city and your water tastes like it came out of the toilet bowl, but that's what brita filtering pitchers are for..

[Dr D]

The original use of flouride in water was proposed as a way to pacify the masses! An interesting effect produced by its status as a neurotoxin.

Also It would cost millions to dispose of it properly as it is classified as a toxic industrial waste. However some enterprising soul convinced the government that it was good for teeth and created a market for this toxic goo. Now the company gets to sell its waste instead of pay for its disposal.

The dark side of capitalism as it were......

(the above comments are to be in no way construed to implicate me as a communist or god forbid a socialist. It is merely a statement that even the good guys have a dark side)

[chadx]

Anyhoo, our dentist told us that what flouride does, in very simple terms, is convert the plaque into enamel....

Sounds like the guy should lose his license because he doesn't have a clue. That or he was joking or perhaps you misunderstood what he was saying. As mentioned before, the only thing fluoride does topically is kill bacteria. It kills the bacteria that can cause plaque, true, but kills all the beneficial bacteria in your mouth as well. Nothing to do with enamel unless you are talking about fluorisis, which is basically chemical poisoning. It has to do with rearranding the crystalline structure of the enamel in its formative years. As one doc put it ""Common sense should tell us that if a poison circulating in a child's body can damage the tooth-forming cells, then other harm also is likely."

Either way, I wouldn't recommend drinking it. It seems kinda silly that bottled water companies would take water, pull all the minerals that are naturally in it out of it and then take their own minerals and stick them in there again. I can understand if you're in the city and your water tastes like it came out of the toilet bowl, but that's what brita filtering pitchers are for..

Some water companies actually add flouride to their bottle water, too. You can learn a lot from reading the labels as to what form of filtration they perform. Many only micron and carbon filter. You can do that for $14 on your sink. Some people just assume all bottled water is the same or that it is superior to tap water that you filter yourself. That just isn't the case.

[chadx]

Maybe it's time to ask your city water provider what type/grade, and from where they get their fluoride. I've never heard Homer Simpson say "Mmmmm, flouride". See below...

>>>Dr. Hardy Limeback, a leading Canadian expert and head of preventive dentistry at the University of Toronto ---

...Limeback, who once supported but now opposes fluoridation, has written extensively on fluoride's health risks, and his views are shared by many in the scientific community.

...Limeback and others also point out that industrial sources of fluoride contain harmful chemicals and have not been tested properly.

"Hydrofluorosilicic acid is recovered from the smokestack scrubbers during the production of phosphate fertilizer and sold to most of the major cities in North America, which use this industrial grade source of fluoride to fluoridate drinking water, rather than the more expensive pharmaceutical grade sodium fluoride salt," he wrote in a public letter in April 2000. "Fluorosilicates have never been tested for safety in humans. Furthermore, these industrial-grade chemicals are contaminated with trace amounts of heavy metals such as lead, arsenic and radium that accumulate in humans."

[kipstar]

fascinating Chad and others; I had heard that flouride is some sort of bad biproduct and my dad was convinced that flouride in the water was what had given him prostate cancer (well that, and being given mercury to cure some sort of dysentary after the war; amoebic dysentary or something).

I have also heard the abrasive in toothpaste is some sort of metal powder as well? Is this true?

Ah.... truth comes out. Only on bomber. :-)

[chadx]

Metal as an abrasive? Hmm, not sure, but not likely. At least not as an abrasive. There are still some pretty harsh pastes out there, but that might be over the top. It looks like there are sometimes some metal content in today's pastes, but not as an abrasive.

Per a quick look up...

"The most commonly used abrasives are hydrated silica (softened silica), calcium carbonate (also known as chalk), and sodium bicarbonate (baking soda). Other abrasives include dibasic calcium phosphate, calcium sulfate, tricalcium phosphate, and sodium metaphosphate hydrated alumina. Each abrasive also has slightly different cleaning properties, and a combination of them might be used in the final product."

However, I did note, in the same article that an alkali metal is part of the combo used to create the foaming action.

"Sudsers, also known as foaming agents, are surfactants. They lower the surface tension of water so that bubbles are formed. Multiple bubbles together make foam. Sudsers help in removing particles from teeth. Sudsers are usually a combination of an organic alcohol or a fatty acid with an alkali metal. Common sudsers are sodium lauryl sulfate, sodium lauryl sulfoacetate, dioctyl sodium sulfosuccinate, sulfolaurate, sodium lauryl sarcosinate, sodium stearyl fumarate, and sodium stearyl lactate."

Full article here...

http://www.madehow.com/Volume-3/Toothpaste.html

[chadx]

Here is an article to read if you have young children in the house (using toothpaste with flouride).

http://fluoridealert.org/media/1994b.html

...and yes, fluoride is a poison, even according to the FDA. Read the back of any fluoride toothpaste tube. In the late 90s, the ADA and FDA finally put the warnings and poison control comments on toothpaste.

Fluoride has never been approved by the FDA.

Here is a cut and paste of another article (numbers indicate references also pasted below...

"Because of a glitch in the law(3), the U.S. Food and Drug Administration (FDA) never safety-tested fluoride for ingestion.1 Yet, the FDA recently OK'd cavity-preventing claims on fluoridated bottled water labels (2), giving Americans a false sense of security about the safety and effectiveness of drinking bottled water with fluoride added..

Sodium fluoride was sold before FDA safety and effectiveness testing laws were enacted in 1938 and 1962, respectively. So fluoride was exempt from scrutiny, or "grandfathered in," without any FDA human or animal studies. (3) "The premise was that all pre-1938 drugs were considered safe," according to FDA correspondence.(3)

Sodium fluoride was already sold pre-1938 but not as a decay preventive. As strange as it sounds, it commonly sold as a rat poison. The FDA has no information on the medical uses of fluoride before 1938. (3) "

References:

1) U.S. FDA Approved Drug List

http://www.accessdata.fda.gov/scripts/cder/drugsatfda/

2) US FDA, Center for Food Safety and Applied Nutrition, Office of Nutritional Products, Labeling, and Dietary Supplements, October 14, 2006, "Health Claim Notification for Fluoridated Water and Reduced Risk of Dental Caries

http://www.cfsan.fda.gov/~dms/flfluoro.html

3) E-mail correspondence at bottom of article

http://fluoridedangers.blogspot.com/2005/12/fluoride-never-fda-approved-for.html

[chadx]

By the way, this is not all "conspiracy" thinking. Some people tend to lump anything that questions current process as such. It's not that at all. I do the research before forming an opinion on such subjects. Your opinion may very but just make sure it's based on your research rather than advertisements.

Every year there are more and more scientists, doctors, dentists, researchers, etc., who used to suport the use of fluoride, that are not strongly opposed to it. When you realize that both sides agree on most of the factts, such as that it is correctly classified as a poison and hazardous material, it becomes fairly clear to me that you shouldn't be consuming this stuff. It is beyond me how the pro-fluoride side can sit and tell me, with a straight face, that it is all about quantity and that the benefit outweighs the risks.

Clipped from another article...(something to ask your dentist next time)

>>>

"

What about dentists?

I challenge you to ask your own dentist for detailed information on fluoride. Test his/her knowledge of this subject, and see if the answers you get make you more confident or more doubtful.

Ask your dentist to tell you exactly what fluoride is and what the lethal dosage is. Ask your dentist where the fluoride in their toothpaste and fluoride treatments originally comes from (trust me — you really don’t want to know). Ask your dentist how s/he came to believe that fluoride helps prevent tooth decay. Ask your dentist to tell you about the dangers of fluoride exposure. Ask your dentist to tell you where you can obtain the proof that fluoride usage is safe and effective.

Wouldn’t you expect your dentist to know this information?

Personally I have never met a dentist who knew even the most basic facts about fluoride. Dentists apparently learn about fluoride from the same people that market it to consumers. Most likely your dentist doesn’t know much more about fluoride than you do aside from the information that’s been provided to them by marketers. In fact, simply by reading this article, you probably know a lot more about fluoride than your dentist does, unless your dentist happens to be exceptional.

"

[D-Sub]

so wait...flouride in toothpaste is bad, too?

why does Toms "natural" toothpaste ****ing use it?

god, man...its impossible to NOT ingest toxins. Im gonna be like bubble boy!

[chadx]

Bad? I guess there are varying levels of bad. Since it is topical, it is not as bad as ingesting it. But kiddies tend to swallow it, in which case it is VERY bad. Again, the only topical benefit is it kills the bacteria that cause plaque, etc. (because it is a poison). It is the abrasives in toothpaste that clean your teeth, not the fluoride.

Tom's also makes non-fluoride paste, as do many other manufactures.

Bubble boy? Hey good idea! :D Nah, then again, that would get boring. It's all about varying levels of risk. Some small changes and easy changes, like this, I see no reason not to do them. Other things are harder to avoid. Your body can only handle so much before it weakens enough to let disease, of one type or another, set in. I just think a person might as well avoid as many stressers (chemicals) as one can.

Also just to mention, just because things are common practice doesn't mean they are safe. How many years did we use lead water supply pipes in houses? It was common practice until the lead poisoning thing came up. There are many other examples of common everyday things later found to be toxic to one degree or another and fading away (or flat out being outlawed). Think of all the pharmacueticals (sp?) that have been pulled off the shelves after 3, 5, or 10 years on the market after they start causing all kinds of problems. "Tested". "Safe". "Approved by the FDA". Yeah, sure. That makes me feel better. So if all the unsafe stuff manages to get approved by the FDA (and is later pulled because peoples heart valves deteriorate, brain chemistry changes, birth defects, etc.), then what about fluoride since it has never been approved by the FDA? Makes you think. Or should anyway.

People tend to ignore what they put into their bodies if it doesn't give them immediate problems (hence why big macs are so popular! :D ). They often don't think long term. That is not unlike when we were teenagers or in our 20s and thought we'd live forever and were invincable. "Damn the long term consequences" we thought. But these chemicals that are supposedly "safe and/or beneficial in these low amounts" have long term effects and consequences. Most of these poisons (like fluoride) and toxins are cumulative. Meaning your body stores them and doesn't flush them from your system as fast as you ingest them, even when ingested in extremely small doses. People finally caught on to that concept with mercury. The results of that were a rationing on how often a person should eat fish with a high risk of high mercury content. They also, finally, took some or all of the mercury out of vacinations, which was causing all kinds of long term problems in children (read: mercury poisoning). It's just a matter of time before the fluoride backlash picks up momentum. It already is. It's been building steam since the 90s and, I think, will be an even more mainstream way of thinking come the end of this decade.

There are already cities pulling their fluoride programs and more to follow. The only problem is there are still a few small cities getting conned into STARTING this program. Often by 'big city' folk that move into the town and start a big fuss when they find out the water is not fluoridated. People tend to band together behind 'common belief or concept' rather than researching it and when those towns put it on a ballot, people mindlessly check off the "Yes, add it" box without realizing what they are doing. After all, they've been told their whole lives that ingesting fluoride is good for your teeth and poses no harm. Only problem ? That is inaccurate.

[uku]

Thanks for the read. It reminds me a fact that bottled water is 800 times more expensive than tap water. Read from a newspaper's Nature extra. And as we know now it is definately not that many times heathier. It could be a saviour in a region, where we have chemical accident or a pollution. But in general it is a big hype. And then we have Evian producing gadgets that enable you to spray water from the French Alps on your face on a hot summer day. Crazy.

[bartron]

Study shows higher levels of potentially toxic chemical in some bottled water

'later...