Foolish kids at TWS

[jtslalom]

I just read the the response from a Transworld snowboarding writer on the subject of hardriding. Don't get upset over the fact that some riders really don't apreciate hard riding, even if they are writers from Transworld. One thing is for sure. I have NEVER met a rider (soft or hard) who can really carve that has NOT ridden plates. I am a high school teacher in a town that is 3 miles from two ski areas. I have seen tons of kids ride throughout my years of teaching. Some of these kids are down right outstanding in the park and in the pipe but one thing is for sure, almost ALL of them SUCK at carving. This is why I love when one of them starts running their mouth at me at school about how kickass they are. When I see them on the hill and take a free riding run with them, they can't keep up. They generally can't free ride and almost never can carve. What does this leave, a kid who skids every turn in the park but can throw down a wicked cab 5 over a perfectly groomed jump. I've never seen any of these kids pull wicked airs in the bumps or on any kicker that wasn't man made. I feel sad for most these types of kids because they will never know how it feels to drive a few hard carves down a nice groomed slope then catch a little air into a bump field and pound a few bumps, then back on to a groomer to rail some more carves and then pull a 360 rocket off a kicker on the side off a slope. Thats riding. So to all the little grommits out there who think carving sucks, you don't understand it and probably never will. One thing is for sure, outside the park and pipe most of you SUCK. SO don't get in my way or I may drive a line across your board and split it in two.

[Fat Old Bastard]

Do you have a link to the TWS response ?

[Phil]

One thing is for sure. I have NEVER met a rider (soft or hard) who can really carve that has NOT ridden plates..

I have met plenty. In fact, I know quite a few that can outcarve a lot of the hardbooters out there. Remember, it is just snowboarding. A good snowboarder should be able to do it all. Truly high level park and pipe riders can carve well.

One thing is for sure, outside the park and pipe most of you SUCK.

I agree that this is true for a lot, but there are a lot of good snowboarders that are park and pipe rats. I can't believe that your mountain is that different. I would bet that if you got to know more of these guys, you would find some skills in there somewhere.

As far as attitude, I have never been to a park or pipe where the negative attitude about hardbooting persists after I get to know the people and ride with them.

Our attitudes as hardbooters can cause problems a lot more than just the fact that we are riding hardboots can.

[Pow]

I post on that forum daily. hardbooting is appreciated by just about everyone on the site. the subject of hardbooting hasnt come up since spring, though, when somebody questioned why my binding angles were so steep. They think ECing is an amazing concept, along with "buttonhole"ing. Most people who dont like it dont really know it, youve just gatta be patient and bring them up to date.

[Tommy D]

Hey, what's "Buttonholing?"

[FTA2R]

is what is considered "normal."

Alpine is NOT the norm. The softie masses have no idea that FS dominates mainstream snowboarding, so when you start talking about alpine, it gets attention and can easily cause a commotion (b/c everything is SO FS centered).

case in point: local snowboarding online group I used to be a member of, there was 1 thread re: alpine in SBX and soon enough it was "you all think you're so bad, so fast" blah blah. 1 thread, out of many. If the mainstream isn't in the center in the first place (see Iran gov't =) ), then any new concept will seem radically different.

they say "it's in the eye of the beholder"

[tex1230]

Hey, what's "Buttonholing?"

"buttonholeing" is a carved 360

[Guest Marty]

Usually park rats, don't own boards with sharp/tuned edges. ( i.e. 'jib board" )

[jtslalom]

Phil,

"Rejoice young man in thy youth" but don't make too many assumptions. I'm just stirring the pot Phil, just stirring the pot.

[FTA2R]

this is an interesting and very discussion-worthy / debatable topic that keeps coming up. over the past 2 or so seasons that i've ridden plates, i admit i've def. been "anti-FS" (more so at certain times) but I now see the error of my ways. everyone must decide for themselves how, or even if, they will choose to "associate" with the other 95% of riders. we are ALL riders, but yes, it seems like we are in diff't worlds sometimes and the mags don't help to eliminate any tension.

perhaps we should differentiate b/w what we see/experience on the hill and what we see in the magazine. surely not every young FS rider reads the mags. as for the mags, i guess they have an image to uphold.

now let's look at the other side of this. Some here may not see or want to realize this, but, snowboarding, as a whole, is a young sport. many, if not most of us here, are older than the average rider, or at least older than the targeted demographic. we were all teens once (some teens are members of this site), and teens are, well teens- capable of being quite obnoxious, arrogant, whatever. so, let me suggest that perhaps certain characteristics of "pipe monkeys" or whatever we call them are due more to their age and the influence of advertising, X-games, etc. not their "choices as a rider."

i never thought i'd be writing "in defense of the young 'rats" but if you take a totally objective look, set stereotypes aside, can we really fault them for wanting to spend all day in the pipe? they are just out to have fun, that may not entail learning carving, just as many (most?) here don't do FS (although obviously equipment can be a key factor here) I told myself I'd take an FS lesson last year and didn't get too, but i really wanna this year.

we have a 1-3(%) market share? yeah it sux that we don't get any recognition or attn, but it's also cool that we're different. the irony is that we're so rare we do get attention (just no press, lol) what we as hardbooters do have, though, that i don't think they ever will, is true comraderie. now some people here really don't care about this, but i think it's one of the neat little things about our niche. maybe it's the same with the slalom skate guys? we may argue amongst ourselves, butwhen it comes to riding day(s), how many of us have gone to greath lenghts on the hill to hook up and ride or even just talk with the other hardbooter? equipment swaps, people going out of there way, come on this doesn't happen with the masses, certainly not to the same degree!!!

let's face it, most teens are just out to have fun with their riding. they're more concerned with nailing the Shaun White moves than perfecting carving. i think that's natural. and, let's admit, the kids are fearless, sacrificing their bodies. most of us are past that stage, we're feeling in the next day! maybe we're jealous of their indestructable bodies?!

now what i do have a problme with is the "anti carving" culture, which TWS or whoever seem to help spread. of course some young riders may unfortuenately be influenced by this, but i stick steadfast to my belief, good riding is the best thing we can do. throw in something flashy or maybe even some FS on your alpine board and you may cause them to get curious about carving. we are the "freaks" of snowboarding, lol.

just don't wear lots of neon.

[www.oldsnowboards.com]

20 some years ago I started snowboarding because it was different, exciting and it was a blast!! I very much enjoyed being apart of something few people understood or cared to. In fact I loved the idea that many thought it was crazy to be strapped to one board, some even considered it dangerous! Ooooh! I loved riding the fresh snow on my strange board. I loved spotting other "Snowboarders" in the mass of skiers and finding out what they were riding , what they had heard, we were instant bros! Many still are today! Looking back , I never cared that they didn't understand of even that they might treat me like an outcast. It never really matter to me. I loved having a secret that I could share with my friends.

Alpine snowboarding has almost always been apart of my "Sliding on Snow", yet I look back and cheerish the fact that what is old is new and frankly it shares many of the same things that attracted me to snowboarding in the first place. Passionate people who know a secret and have a ball doing that which few understand. Cherish these days. Bryan

[philw]

What he said: nothing's changed, it's just that the part-timers are now occasionally huddled in the park rather than on the mountain, and that's a good thing, because they're out of my way.

On the original post, you need to stop riding with kids and start riding with athletes. That's all.

It's the same with the comics - if you're going to read teen mags, then you can hardly complain that they think teeny things are cool. They're not going to publish articles bemoaning the fact that their readers are slower than people twice their age, or that they don't know how to talk to women.

I'm not sure why it makes a difference to me what other people choose to ride, but if it matters, then presumably the best approach is to try to encourage people to grow into alpine. Something like... don't slag the other guys, just make sure they have the option to go your way when the time's right. Most of 'em will give up skidding one way or another, and your opportunity is right there and then - either they go away, go skiing, or go alpine.

TWS died years ago for lots of obvious reasons: who cares?

[Phil]

Phil,

"Rejoice young man in thy youth" but don't make too many assumptions. I'm just stirring the pot Phil, just stirring the pot.

(although you may overestimate my youth)

Oh, and BTW to all that are interested, I think that it should be noted that there is a big difference in park and pipe. You can slide on your butt into the park all the way to a rail, then stand up, stomp the rail, and slide back out of the park on your butt. When it comes to the pipe, though, no carve, no ride. The bigger the pipe, the more this applies. Without carving, there is no way to maintain speed in the pipe. That still does not mean that a pipe rider can carve WELL on piste, but they usually can carve well in the pipe.

[Fat Old Bastard]

(although you may overestimate my youth)

Oh, and BTW to all that are interested, I think that it should be noted that there is a big difference in park and pipe. You can slide on your butt into the park all the way to a rail, then stand up, stomp the rail, and slide back out of the park on your butt. When it comes to the pipe, though, no carve, no ride. The bigger the pipe, the more this applies. Without carving, there is no way to maintain speed in the pipe. That still does not mean that a pipe rider can carve WELL on piste, but they usually can carve well in the pipe.

Well said ! You have to carve and you have to be totally committed. Pipe is difficult. Too difficult, scary and painful for this old codger. I have a lot of respect for the boarders and skiers that rip in the pipe. It takes real skill.

[D-Sub]

...best approach is to try to encourage people to grow into alpine. ...make sure they have the option to go your way when the time's right...either they go away, go skiing, or go alpine.

Phil

of course I may have misunderstood your post, but I dont think so. The problem, the way I see it, lies with the attitude that your post seems to convey, that alpine is "better," or something to aspire to, and that park/pipe riding is somehow lesser. Aside from the kids that apparently simply slide from hit to hit, that type of riding takes TONS of skill, and HUGE nuts.

Me, I think the epitome if snowboarding is all-mountain, any terrain freeriding...the style that folks like Goodwill, Devenport, Zellers, etc, represent. They can handle ANY terrain, and do it with style, grace, power and courage.

The majority of alpine riders are one-trick pony's, just like the guys "we" scoff at. I know of a few who head to the lodge when it is SOFT out, or storming.

anyway...I think those that hold the attitude that they are better because they have learned to reduce snowboarding to its most basic level, the refined turn, are the ones that need an attitude adjustment.

[Neil Gendzwill]

Me, I think the epitome if snowboarding is all-mountain, any terrain freeriding...the style that folks like Goodwill, Devenport, Zellers, etc, represent. They can handle ANY terrain, and do it with style, grace, power and courage.

To me, this is "alpine" riding - riding the mountain, as opposed to the artificial stuff like pipes and rails we stick on perfectly good terrain.

[D-Sub]

sorry neil, but...that's going against the accepted definition. What I described is generally called freeriding. Alpine is hardboots. Yes, the park and pipe are built environments. Yes, you can freeride in hardboots, but most here do not.

you kinda missed my whole point though...too many "carvers" constantly bagging on "freestylers" but then complaining when the "freestylers" dont like them. It truly does appear that many carvers think they're better than "them" but...again I say, the majority of carvers are very, very limited in capabilities.

The funny thing is...about the park and pipe...someone else said that it keeps "them" in one place, and its true! At bachelor I would stop and watch in the park sometimes...and it would almost be crowded...not really, but would have a lot more heads in it than the groomed runs or off-trail...and I thought "great"...more room for me!

[tex1230]

Agree with d-sub. Carving is one aspect that some of us tend to focus on a little too much. I'm not hanging in the park & pipe anymore because my body can't take the impact anymore...but the years I spent there taught me alot. dismissing any one aspect of riding is foolish.

[Guest sandarapark]

To me, this is "alpine" riding - riding the mountain, as opposed to the artificial stuff like pipes and rails we stick on perfectly good terrain.

aren't groomed piste artificial too? i mean courduroys don't come naturally.

kinda new in the alpine world, in fact i havn't tried harbooting... i just happen to have a board in the closet:p AND i didn't know there was a "HATE" factor between hardbooters and soft booters:( ( still am and always will be:p )

[D-Sub]

yes, grooming is artificial! excellent point!!!!!

[philw]

The problem, the way I see it, lies with the attitude that your post seems to convey, that alpine is "better," or something to aspire to, and that park/pipe riding is somehow lesser. Aside from the kids that apparently simply slide from hit to hit, that type of riding takes TONS of skill, and HUGE nuts.

Certainly I look on Alpine as better - that's why I do it. I think you'll find that I'm suggesting dealing with that in a way which doesn't alienate other people. Clearly I've failed in your case, but I think I can live with it.

Me, I think the epitome if snowboarding is all-mountain, any terrain freeriding...of alpine riders are one-trick pony's, just like the guys "we" scoff at.

I think you're confusing yourself. Alpine *is* those things you say at the start here: that's kind of the reason it's better. It sounds a lot like you're scratting around there redefining the terms to fit your line. Please read my original post - "scoffing" is precisely what I'm suggesting you don't do.

[D-Sub]

sorry phil but it is you who is mistaken regarding definitions. Im sure you've been riding a long time, possibly longer than I have, but...in the early years, "alpine" and "carving" were synonymous, and still are.

we're being pedantic here. Im guessing, based on the photos you've presented, that you are an excellent all around rider. Many "carvers" are not, and yet, somehow...feel that they are better than "park rats" who are equally limited.

I offended you when I didnt mean to, but like you say "I can live with it"

you havent alienated me...you don't have the power to do so! I just take issue with the "alpine" (defined as hardboot, carving, mostly groomer riding) "is better" thing. I havent ridden my softboot setup in two seasons, never go in the park (used to, but like tex says it hurts too much now) but I do my best to ride all that is available to me, if only at a moderately skilled level.

- "scoffing" is precisely what I'm suggesting you don't do.

I did read your original post. More than once. And it sounds like you're saying "carvers are better, but...we can just keep that to ourselves." The attitude is still there, though, and its the attitude that I think is unnecessary.

look, again I say, you took offense where none was intended. I wasnt attacking you, but I was and am definitely "attacking" those who do nothing but ride groomers and then make fun of "those one-dimensional park rats."

[Fat Old Bastard]

...in the early years, "alpine" and "carving" were synonymous, and still are.

I was a late starter in the early years (November 1982) but as I recall it was called snowsurfing. I don't think I heard the words "alpine" or "carving" until the late '80s or early '90s.

It is a real pity that any division exists between the various styles of boarding and I think it's up to each individual rider to be friendly to everybody else on the mountain no matter how many planks they are on or how they choose to ride.

Mind you there are two kinds of boarders that annoy me: 1. People who run over my board in the liftlines, 2. People who sit down to strap up and block the exit ramp at the top of the lifts; and 3. People who are unfriendly. (Yes that's 3 types).

The only point of going boarding is to have fun !

[Allee]

I've ridden the lift with park monkey kids on Burton gear who thought my stuff was way cool, and were damn fine company. I'd talk to them anytime. I've also met carvers who are total hosers, and next time I wouldn't waste my oxygen.

If they're cool with me, I'm cool with them ... and I don't care what you call it, let's go ride. I might even attempt a rail this season.

[Pow]

If they're cool with me, I'm cool with them ... and I don't care what you call it, let's go ride. I might even attempt a rail this season.

haha, not me... im not putting my ptex to anything but snow and ice. But i am very friendly to park monkeys and i even ride around with them and hit the park on occasion. Im already starting to outgrow their company... most riders are under the age of 16, but its still fun to goof off.