1xsculler Posted April 19, 2019 Report Share Posted April 19, 2019 I thought I had read on this site that the UPZ boots had a 6 degree lift in the heel. As I was putting my equipment away for the season I decided to check this out with my digital level only to find out the the actual heel lift is 11.5 degrees. So, to ride with my front foot flat in my F2 bindings and UPZ boots I heed an 11.5 degree toe lift and not the 6 degree lift I am currently riding with. Any thoughts? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colozeus Posted April 19, 2019 Report Share Posted April 19, 2019 Did you take the measurement with or without the footbed in place? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SunSurfer Posted April 19, 2019 Report Share Posted April 19, 2019 (edited) @1xsculler I had made some measurements through the sole of my UPZs that when I calculated the slope for the whole sole length came out at 6 degrees. I more recently came across an X-ray image of a foot in a UPZ boot and measured a heel to ball of foot zeppa angle of 11 degrees. I ride a 6 degree toe lift under my front UPZ RC10 and find this is both comfortable and allows me a relatively long stance distance (182cm tall, 56cm stance C-to-C). Unless I walk around barefoot, or wearing Birkenstock sandals, the majority of my footwear has a heel higher than the forefoot. Not sure that we need to be completely flat under the front foot, but I do need to compensate for my front foot being substantially in front (relative to my pelvis) of my rear foot with my roughly 60 degree stance angles. Edited April 19, 2019 by SunSurfer Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1xsculler Posted April 19, 2019 Author Report Share Posted April 19, 2019 2 hours ago, Colozeus said: Did you take the measurement with or without the footbed in place? I took the measurement with my liner out and both with the thin plastic under layment in and out...11.5° both ways, no question about it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
monodude Posted April 21, 2019 Report Share Posted April 21, 2019 On 4/19/2019 at 2:18 PM, 1xsculler said: I thought I had read on this site that the UPZ boots had a 6 degree lift in the heel. As I was putting my equipment away for the season I decided to check this out with my digital level only to find out the the actual heel lift is 11.5 degrees. So, to ride with my front foot flat in my F2 bindings and UPZ boots I heed an 11.5 degree toe lift and not the 6 degree lift I am currently riding with. Any thoughts? What is the angle of other mfgrs boots ? "flat" is probably a relative term. I dare say all foot wear has heel lift to some degree. So UPZ set up is relative to the difference Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beckmann AG Posted April 23, 2019 Report Share Posted April 23, 2019 (edited) On 4/19/2019 at 4:18 PM, 1xsculler said: I thought I had read on this site that the UPZ boots had a 6 degree lift in the heel. As I was putting my equipment away for the season I decided to check this out with my digital level only to find out the the actual heel lift is 11.5 degrees. So, to ride with my front foot flat in my F2 bindings and UPZ boots I heed an 11.5 degree toe lift and not the 6 degree lift I am currently riding with. Any thoughts? Thoughts: 1) Don’t believe everything you read on line. 2)The point isn’t to have a ‘flat’ front foot. The point is to attenuate that obscene amount of ramp such that you can bear weight evenly/selectively on the entirety of both feet without twisting yourself into a wad of taffy. ->Depending on your skeletal structure and desired outcome, that may be anywhere from negative 1 to plus 3 degrees (net) at the front foot, and 7 to 10 plus (net) at the rear. 3) Technique is a byproduct/outgrowth of interface. If your interface numbers are excessive, odds are good your technique will be similarly excessive. E.g., ‘heelside toilet zombie’. 4) Small changes (tenths of a degree) can make a significant difference if you’re close to the target, whereas larger changes (full degree or multiples thereof) can make almost no difference when you’re off the mark. 5)Internal and external ramp changes are not interchangeable. 6) Front boot internal ramp and rear boot internal ramp may need to be different in order to get the desired effect. 7) Front boot ramp and rear boot ramp serve distinct purpose, and each will either contribute to, or impair range of motion at the hips, knees and ankles, especially when the board is on edge and loaded. #8) Binding toe and heel lift should be used to support an effective stance, rather than be used to make a wider stance more comfortable. 9) To some extent, the more accurate your ramp configuration, the less flex you’ll probably need in your boots. 10) Points 1-10 are likely moot. On 4/21/2019 at 10:16 AM, monodude said: What is the angle of other mfgrs boots ? From memory, the Deeluxe Indy, size 8 measured around +/- 10. The amount of heel elevation in a pair of shoes is usually related to the intended use of those shoes, and the postures they should 'support'. Which is one reason why wildland firefighter's boots have more heel height than indoor soccer shoes. Different 'work' requires different postures, requires different heel heights. Otherwise injury. Edited April 23, 2019 by Beckmann AG 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
b0ardski Posted April 23, 2019 Report Share Posted April 23, 2019 new favorite term "toilet zombies" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lordmetroland Posted April 23, 2019 Report Share Posted April 23, 2019 1 hour ago, b0ardski said: "toilet zombies" All along, I've been misusing that term. I always thought it referred to those little floaty poops that keep coming back up into the bowl... 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daveo Posted April 23, 2019 Report Share Posted April 23, 2019 (edited) 1 hour ago, lordmetroland said: All along, I've been misusing that term. I always thought it referred to those little floaty poops that keep coming back up into the bowl... Edited April 23, 2019 by daveo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lurch Posted April 23, 2019 Report Share Posted April 23, 2019 @Beckmann AG without disturbing the undead lurking in the WC, could you please school me on how adjusting internal ramp is advantageous? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beckmann AG Posted April 24, 2019 Report Share Posted April 24, 2019 7 hours ago, Lurch said: without disturbing the undead lurking in the WC World Cup? Water Closet? Wench Cafeteria? Werewolf Convention? Warlock Cemetery? Wildling Congress? If you accept that the primary inputs to your board are the pressure applied perpendicular to the topsheet, and the tilt of the board relative to the snow; It follows that the pressure applied through the soles of your feet should be largely independent of the leverage as applied through the boot cuff. And vice verso. If 11+ degrees of ramp in the boot is too much, and you resolve (through some ingenious device), that what you really need is +2 degrees net at the front boot, and +9 degrees net at the rear ('net' being boot on binding). ->As this amount of ramp will allow you to 1) stand evenly weighted without bodily contrivance, and 2) allow your center of mass to remain centered along the length of the board when you flex and extend your legs within a reasonable and comfortable range, thereby providing superiour grip and agility. That means you'd have to use a binding with 9 degrees of toe lift at the front. ->Good luck finding one of those. ->Even if you swiped the single 9 degree base disc known to exist, you'd have no adjustment left for canting. ->A 9 degree toe lift would put the boot cuff back of vertical (which more or less locks your front leg), unless you seriously advance the forward lean. At which point you've used up much of the forward flex inherent to the boot, and probably altered the nature of the remaining flex. If you don't advance the forward lean, your (locked) front knee is probably going to be offset toward the heel edge of the board, which means the toe/heel leverage ratio is biased to one side, and the board will probably be twisted while turning. To get 9 degrees total at the rear foot, you'd have to use a two degree toe lift. Again, your boot cuff would be in the way, (too much leverage) or you'd compromise available flex. Also, two degree toe lifts purchased where? And think of the ridicule... If you can't change the internal ramp, you either have to convince yourself that 'too much' is fine, or tilt the bindings (somehow) and face a leverage/ flex problem. Probably both. There are other considerations, but it's time for recess. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rjnakata Posted April 24, 2019 Report Share Posted April 24, 2019 1 hour ago, Beckmann AG said: If 11+ degrees of ramp in the boot is too much, and you resolve (through some ingenious device), that what you really need is +2 degrees net at the front boot, and +9 degrees net at the rear ('net' being boot on binding).... For such a rider, it sounds like you're saying boots with an 11+ degree ramp (UPZ!) are not a good choice due to the boots' inability to correctly function with the lifts necessary to create these particular ramp angles, correct? What boot ramp angle do you think most riders would benefit from, and what boots have that?! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lurch Posted April 24, 2019 Report Share Posted April 24, 2019 1 hour ago, Beckmann AG said: World Cup? Water Closet? Wench Cafeteria? Werewolf Convention? Warlock Cemetery? Wildling Congress? No. Yes. YES, and even better if they have beer. Yes. Yes. Oscar or Gene? Your explanation is what I thought I understood - it was your statement that "internal and external ramp changes are not interchangeable" which had me wondering if I was missing something (other than boot builders overdosing on ramp). I feel like I would to try like more than 6 lift on the front, but as you say I run out of cuff travel (Which had me thinking about the AT Backlands and how much extra forward lean they might provide, but I digress). The ShredStack9™ could offer 9 lift/3 cant if two 6 deg were heaped - the lack of oxygen may become an issue. 1 hour ago, Beckmann AG said: There are other considerations, but it's time for recess Appreciate your reply. Recess is not be meddled with. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beckmann AG Posted April 25, 2019 Report Share Posted April 25, 2019 20 hours ago, Lurch said: it was your statement that "internal and external ramp changes are not interchangeable" which had me wondering if I was missing something In simpler terms, internal ramp change will affect plantar pressure distribution, while external ramp change will affect both pressure distribution and leverage. Meanwhile, both internal and external ramp will affect the fore/aft relationship of the center of mass ( with respect to the long axis of the board, depending on binding angles) during flexion/extension. This, in turn, will affect overall pressure distribution along the length of the board. If you have additional questions, I'll be on the monkey bars. Will trade additional beta for that packet of Pop Rocks you hide under the Snoopy thermos in your lunch box. 20 hours ago, rjnakata said: For such a rider, it sounds like you're saying boots with an 11+ degree ramp (UPZ!) are not a good choice due to the boots' inability to correctly function with the lifts necessary to create these particular ramp angles, correct? What boot ramp angle do you think most riders would benefit from, and what boots have that?! Correct. 'Ideal' ramp angle will vary from athlete to athlete, depending on limb segment length, etc., and what works for me probably won't work for you, regardless of preferences for one 'technique' over another. That said, analogous study suggests 4-5 degrees as a reasonable starting point, in part because that puts you in tuning range using available bindings (external) and Gorilla tape (internal). Haven't had a chance to pull and measure the bootboard from a pair of Full Tilt boots, but I suspect they're lower than 7-8, and should take well to modification. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rjnakata Posted April 25, 2019 Report Share Posted April 25, 2019 48 minutes ago, Beckmann AG said: Correct. Wow. to think no available snowboard boots have a "suitable" ramp...I wonder about Mountain Slope... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daveo Posted April 25, 2019 Report Share Posted April 25, 2019 2 hours ago, rjnakata said: Wow. to think no available snowboard boots have a "suitable" ramp...I wonder about Mountain Slope... And all plates are terrible. And modern snowboard technology is detrimental. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rjnakata Posted April 25, 2019 Report Share Posted April 25, 2019 48 minutes ago, daveo said: And all plates are terrible. And modern snowboard technology is detrimental. Hey, there's room in this forum for divergent opinions...I'm open to them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daveo Posted April 25, 2019 Report Share Posted April 25, 2019 1 hour ago, rjnakata said: Hey, there's room in this forum for divergent opinions...I'm open to them. Exactly! Beauty of the internets! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beckmann AG Posted April 26, 2019 Report Share Posted April 26, 2019 (edited) On 4/24/2019 at 11:26 PM, rjnakata said: Wow. to think no available snowboard boots have a "suitable" ramp...I wonder about Mountain Slope... 'Suitable' depends on what one asks of their equipment. If you can't tune your ramp, and don't have access to other options, then by default what you have is suitable. If you can tune your ramp, then accepting 11 degrees as appropriate is absurd. It's not like a bunch of boot designers got together in the early 90's and compared data from 50 years of hardboot development before building molds around a standard step-in module. More likely, it was a matter of prioritizing market demand for a convenience feature over something that would be overlooked by the average consumer. If you have access to a band saw, (or an outdoor power equipment dealer), a minimal investment will provide material for off-season experimentation. Might be you already have what you need. Might be you find something significantly better. Edit: To clarify, you can use the bandsaw to make a set of wedges representing the ramp you have, or the ramp you think you want, so as to test one against the other. (Not as a means of sawing the shell in half to see what's inside). Similarly, these plastic felling wedges measure out at +/-4.8 degrees, in the event you don't have access to, or proficiency with power tools. Edited April 28, 2019 by Beckmann AG Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rjnakata Posted April 26, 2019 Report Share Posted April 26, 2019 @Puhutes what is the ramp angle of Mountain slope boots? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beckmann AG Posted April 26, 2019 Report Share Posted April 26, 2019 'B' shell: +/- 10 degrees, removable hard foam bootboard. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
west carven Posted April 27, 2019 Report Share Posted April 27, 2019 howdy it is not the gear... it is the riders degree of competence... most people on upz is rocking it... with no problem... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daveo Posted April 27, 2019 Report Share Posted April 27, 2019 8 hours ago, Beckmann AG said: 'B' shell: +/- 10 degrees, removable hard foam bootboard. Don't think the bootboard contributes to the ramp angle though? The material it is made out of is weird though. Stands up to heat. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beckmann AG Posted April 28, 2019 Report Share Posted April 28, 2019 21 hours ago, daveo said: Don't think the bootboard contributes to the ramp angle though? The material it is made out of is weird though. Stands up to heat. Are we using the term 'boot board' correctly? Typically, the boot board ( integral to the shell mold, or as a separate component) establishes the ramp of a boot, though from your description the MS BB could be used to flip Japancakes? Certainly has a spatulate form. On 4/26/2019 at 8:07 PM, west carven said: it is not the gear... it is the riders degree of competence... most people on upz is rocking it... with no problem... Howdy 'Half Tiresias'... Given your penchant for wearing the nose and mustache on the inside of the goggles... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
west carven Posted April 28, 2019 Report Share Posted April 28, 2019 howdy Beckmann It is because my head is not as big ... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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