PSA: Snorkel-depth snow

[jng]

Our local mountain had over 5' of dry fresh thanks to a series of storms and road closures. I went up to race last night and afterwards took a run off piste. While riding through fresh, I ended up head downhill face down with my board caught between two tree tops. Luckily, I was able to find another tree top to support myself while I released my Intecs. Walking out towards more packed out terrain was near impossible - snow was up to my chest, and I had a moment of terror when it covered my mouth. I used my board as a sled to get out. I would have stayed on my feet on a powder board and softies, but am glad I had the Intecs. 

Yes, there is such a thing as too much snow, so be careful out there, especially our friends in the deeps of Montucky.

[billyt.]

those tree wells can swallow you whole!  That is the worst when you fall downhill and the board is behind you.  Snow is everywhere, neck googles, front and back.  Now your sweating and your heart starts racing because you can't get to your toebail release or thankfully the T handle of the intec.  You start to try to grab branches which shakes more snow off branches above.  when you finally release your binding and collect yourself, you literally have to swim because you can't stand up in the deep stuff. I'm glad to hear that you made it.  

[ibrussell]

At Montucky they trim their tress 30' up and place them 30 feet apart so there were no tree wells. Or you just stayed on the runs.   When you fell you did wallow and swim to get back up.  Picture is at 2pm Wednesday

[pauleleven]

Knee deep powder gives me problems even with unlocked UPZ

I would need to specifically adjust my bindings again to be more comfortable getting more weight in the back, but at that point might as well put bindings on a wide pow board.....

Be safe out there!

[bumpyride]

I posted this awhile back when I was boarding in the Cascades (Alpental, Crystal). I worried about tree wells and having to unclip on cliff faces. The strap runs through my pants, up my jacket sleeve, and into my mitts.  There's just enough strap to reach my hand with a plastic carabiner comfortably, and when I extend my arm to full length it releases the intec bindings.  With some effort you should be able to release upside down.  The clips will snap into the the binding handle and 6 to 7' 6" of 5/8" webbing should fit everyone but Shaq.

When standing on the hill or coming into the lift line, all I have to do is raise my hand.  

If you're boarding deep powder, a leash can be problematic.

PS.  Heard all the stripper pole jokes already, but if you think you have an inner comedian, fire away.  The pole is for coming down from my second floor.

 

[bumpyride]

It happens every year, especially in the Pacific Northwest.  Please be wary of tree wells.  

https://www.seattlepi.com/news/article/Skier-dies-after-falling-into-Mount-Hood-tree-well-13640850.php

 

[bumpyride]

The season is not over yet.  Don't be over confident and if you're a skier keep the ski pole straps off your hands. 

https://www.seattlepi.com/outdoors/article/Northstar-snowboarder-a-victim-of-the-silent-13700194.php

Tree well — the innocuous-looking depression around of the base of a tree after a heavy snowfall — can be just as deadly. On average tree wells kill about the same number of people as avalanches every year.

In a single week in 2018, between Feb. 26 and March 2, at least five skiers or snowboarders in addition to Zhang and Smith suffocated in tree wells in western states and Canadian provinces.

Edited March 21, 2019 by bumpyride
Spelling.

[Missionman]

Being from out east with a single trip out west each year ... that video is a little chilling.  I’ve read about tree wells before but seeing the video of that guy they rescued - itwould be so easy to ski right by him.  Almost no evidence that he is there 

[Corey]

That video is humbling. Thanks for posting! I'd heard of tree wells but have never seen one. 

I added a whistle to my chest pocket after realizing how useless yelling was in trees at MCC, but the cameraman was right on top of the guy and you couldn't hear him yelling in the video. A whistle won't help. 

[philw]

One thing to remember is that you generally have time with a tree well, compared with a slide. They are big holes, so as long as you don't kick everything in on yourself, there should be air space.

I've never fallen in one. I try to ride so if I blow a turn then the way I fall will not be into the wells. I carry a whistle and a radio.

The standard approach is to use a "buddy system", although it's a bit limited. You ride in pairs and "leap frog", with both people yelling every few seconds, depending on how gnarly the trees are. The front person yells, the back person answers. The back person will see immediately if the front rider's gone down. If you have a well balanced pair of riders it's easy to make that flow, but I've never had to rely on it either way.

I was once shooting stills and someone crashed into a tree well almost right in front of me. I asked him if he was ok and if he could wait until I'd finished the shot... he said he was fine with that, so I shot the remainder of our group coming off whatever it was, and then we went and dug the fella out. 

[Eboot]

22 hours ago, Missionman said:

itwould be so easy to ski right by him.  Almost no evidence that he is there 

Agree

if one wasn’t aware and looking, could have skied right past

questions:

1.  In rescue pack is there a fairly stiff flexible hose that could be pushed down to face area to provide air?

2. What is the accepted practice when this happens to you?  Rescuer kept saying don’t move for what one might assume are reasons related to snow filling around head but if one doesn’t how can one draw attention to oneself.  A safety buddy system is great if it works.

[Dan]

18 hours ago, Eboot said:

Agree

if one wasn’t aware and looking, could have skied right past

questions:

1.  In rescue pack is there a fairly stiff flexible hose that could be pushed down to face area to provide air?

2. What is the accepted practice when this happens to you?  Rescuer kept saying don’t move for what one might assume are reasons related to snow filling around head but if one doesn’t how can one draw attention to oneself.  A safety buddy system is great if it works.

I have an Avalung pack that I sometimes use when riding deep powder (I should make a point of always using it, but I found out last season how nice it is to ride without a pack). In theory, going in a treewell with an Avalung (assuming the snorkel mouthpiece is already in your mouth) means that you don't need to worry about suffocation, which _should_ give you time to dig out or be rescued. 

[philw]

On 3/24/2019 at 10:14 PM, Eboot said:

...

1.  In rescue pack is there a fairly stiff flexible hose that could be pushed down to face area to provide air?

2. What is the accepted practice when this happens to you?  Rescuer kept saying don’t move for what one might assume are reasons related to snow filling around head but if one doesn’t how can one draw attention to oneself.  A safety buddy system is great if it works.

(1) Never come across that, but I've also never come across someone who can't actually breathe. The thing is you're in a big hole - a place without snow... so long as you don't squirm around and pull a load of it in with you, there ought to be space there. The hole "goes all the way around" the tree, if you see what I mean, so there is probably air space below you and to your sides. If there isn't space, you can probably make it because unlike avalanche snow it's not compressed and concrete-like, it's powder. You can compress it.


(2) They don't brief much in the heli-boarding training sessions, other than "don't panic", use the buddy system, and wait for help. 

They tell you to dig in from below, which is obvious - rescuers could easily make things worse by kicking snow into the hole. 

In my humble opinion, as above, it's really a much more relaxed sort of "rescue" than I'd expect in an avalanche. I've never been in the latter, but with people in tree wells they usually they yell back when you yell at them, in which case you know you've time to think. 

Waggling around will probably not get you out on your own, but will pull snow down into your air space. If you're not there alone, and you know someone will come for you, you'd stay put. I'd guess that most people probably try to get out, then realize it's not going to work and then stop.

The buddy thing reduces the risk a bit, especially if you're good at it (most people aren't, and it's harder than it looks). A couple of years ago there was a legal case where the litigious wife of a heli-skier who died in a well tried to sue his "buddy" for not looking after him. That was a well in a clear-cut, so a relatively small tree or trunk. I wasn't there but I know the people involved. Anyway, the BC judge threw it out, or the whole "buddy system" thing would have stopped right there.

I've seen some people with Avalungs, but I've never seen anyone ride with one in their gob. I doubt you'd get the air in fast enough to ride, and in any case you're supposed to be yelling to each other for the buddy system. I think that'd increase your risk. Even so, the Avalung is designed (I thought) for compacted snow; that's not really what you're dealing with in a tree well.

[Dan]

7 minutes ago, philw said:

(1) Never come across that, but I've also never come across someone who can't actually breathe. The thing is you're in a big hole - a place without snow... so long as you don't squirm around and pull a load of it in with you, there ought to be space there. The hole "goes all the way around" the tree, if you see what I mean, so there is probably air space below you and to your sides. If there isn't space, you can probably make it because unlike avalanche snow it's not compressed and concrete-like, it's powder. You can compress it.


(2) They don't brief much in the heli-boarding training sessions, other than "don't panic", use the buddy system, and wait for help. 

They tell you to dig in from below, which is obvious - rescuers could easily make things worse by kicking snow into the hole. 

In my humble opinion, as above, it's really a much more relaxed sort of "rescue" than I'd expect in an avalanche. I've never been in the latter, but with people in tree wells they usually they yell back when you yell at them, in which case you know you've time to think. 

Waggling around will probably not get you out on your own, but will pull snow down into your air space. If you're not there alone, and you know someone will come for you, you'd stay put. I'd guess that most people probably try to get out, then realize it's not going to work and then stop.

The buddy thing reduces the risk a bit, especially if you're good at it (most people aren't, and it's harder than it looks). A couple of years ago there was a legal case where the litigious wife of a heli-skier who died in a well tried to sue his "buddy" for not looking after him. That was a well in a clear-cut, so a relatively small tree or trunk. I wasn't there but I know the people involved. Anyway, the BC judge threw it out, or the whole "buddy system" thing would have stopped right there.

I've seen some people with Avalungs, but I've never seen anyone ride with one in their gob. I doubt you'd get the air in fast enough to ride, and in any case you're supposed to be yelling to each other for the buddy system. I think that'd increase your risk. Even so, the Avalung is designed (I thought) for compacted snow; that's not really what you're dealing with in a tree well.

We had two tree well deaths in Oregon last month (including a ski patroller who was riding with other patrollers), so there is definitely potential to suffocate in a tree well - it happens in the Northwest pretty much every year.

As far as riding with the Avalung in, that's Black Diamond's recommendation because in a slide you have a slim chance of actually getting it in your mouth once you realize you're going to need it. Same thing for a tree well -- you have a better chance of getting the snorkel in your mouth after things have gone wrong, but there's a chance you'll be hung up or panicked and not be able to get it in. Air flow is OK, but there's some pressure in the system that makes it more effort than just breathing, so I just hold it with my teeth and breathe around it. For most inbounds riding, the part of the run where you're thinking "I could wind up in a treewell" is pretty short, so it's not that big of a deal. 

As you probably know, the mountain medicine term for tree well deaths is NARSID - non-avalanche-related snow immersion death, and it's not that different from being in an avalanche in that you aren't able to get enough air through the snow. Black Diamond had avalanches in mind when they designed the Avalung, but because it ensures air supply, it is definitely applicable to being  upside down in a tree well as well. 

I assume that as a heli guide, slides are more of a concern than going in a tree well and I'm kind of surprised to hear that your clients are riding without the snorkel in their mouth. It's like riding with your beacon off and planning to turn it on if you're in a slide -- some people might be that cool under fire, but most are not. From Powder: "I still had my doubts about getting the Avalung to my mouth in the event of an avalanche. In Austria, at the top of the mountain and before our descent, I asked a Black Diamond engineer and three IFMGA-certified guides in our group my big question.Their answer was to ski with the Avalung in your mouth from the beginning of your descent."

 

 

[bumpyride]

 

[philw]

16 hours ago, Dan said:

... it's not that different from being in an avalanche in that you aren't able to get enough air through the snow. Black Diamond had avalanches in mind when they designed the Avalung, but because it ensures air supply, it is definitely applicable to being  upside down in a tree well as well. 

...I'm kind of surprised to hear that [heli] clients are riding without the snorkel in their mouth. It's like riding with your beacon off and planning to turn it on if you're in a slide -... three IFMGA-certified guides in our group my big question.Their answer was to ski with the Avalung in your mouth from the beginning of your descent."

Obviously asphyxiation is a risk in both cases, that wasn't my point. You know how they tell you to carry a metal avalanche shovel because the plastic ones can't always cut the debris? In contrast, tree well snow is light and loose, which is why it falls down with you. The snow is different.

I'm not a guide, but the buddy system isn't really optional for heli guests.

That Powder article is interesting, but it reads a bit like "advertorial" and doesn't reflect my experience as described. The only place you can't fly with air bag canisters is the USA; there's no problem in Europe or Canada. Which is partly why the none-gas operated bags have appeared. His Cirque 35 is 1075 g plus the weight of the Avalung. My airbag is 1500g including the full cartridge.