AT ski boots for plates?

[philw]

Reight, I thought I'd best get some gear bought before my country puts up the barriers, so my Backland boots arrived today from sunny Roumania via Austria without hassle in a couple of days. New F2 bindings (I had to switch back to the old fashioned type) arrived the other day from Austria.

First up, let's compare them with the HSPs they're going to replace. They're about 2/3 the physical size, and a little shorter although probably not as much as this image suggests. I can't accurately weigh the HSPs, but I think these are less than half the weight.

Here's my Kessler with the new F2s mounted and the boot in place.

What I learned so far:

• These fit perfectly into the standard F2 Race Titanium bindings I just bought. Those were about €150 as they're the 2018 model (black base not blue or something). Design-wise they've not changed since I bought my Intec version 10 years ago. The metal of the disks looks less shiny.
  
  To clarify, a 2918 F2 Race Titanium binding and a 2018-19 Backland mate perfectly, there appear to be no issues with snugness of fit of the boot in the binding. That's yet to be confirmed on snow, but on carpet I can't get any slop there.

Next up I need to work out how to adjust the forward lean as the instructions are useless. The Allen bolts are the same size as the old Rachlie used, so the tools from those work fine here. These come with a little spanner/ screwdriver thing, but I don't want to use that on Allen bolts.

I spent a couple of seasons snowboarding on Nordica Grand Prix race boots, so I should probably go and ride them on indoor snow to see how they feel with their native stiffness. If they need softening then I either need to build some springs myself, wait for the Phantom ones next season, or buy some from someone on here. One step at a time..

 

 

[pokkis]

There is no adjustment, or at least on last year model. Riding them on fixed mode they feel way too stiff and on walk mode way too soft. So if you dont build/get spring system, then ride on fixed mode not to kill your ankles.

[philw]

There is lean adjustment on this year's model, but it takes a while to work it out. If you take the lean adjuster out of the boot, you'll notice that there is a metal backing plate for it, with two threaded holes. If you look closely, you will note that the threaded holes are not in the centre, rather they are both offset in one direction. Hence reversing the plate gives you a different lean to the default. On mine the default is "upright"; I flipped it for my rear boot to give more lean. All that interacts with the toe/heel lift of course... I expect to maybe need to tweak that.

As you point out,  "walk mode" (which I never expect to use) is completely free flexing, so I'm coming at it from the other end. The back of the boots (the carbon stuff) seems pretty stiff, but there's some flex going forward from the rest of the shell.

Edited February 11, 2019 by philw
typo

[pokkis]

That metal piece was asymmetric already before, but that adjustment does not change monkies for me anyway

As fixed, they are way too stiff for my poor legs, and/or dont bend controlled way without springs.

[Beckmann AG]

For more (tunable) flex in the short term, replace the velcro power strap with a single-band Booster.

The outer plastic tongue can be removed as well.

One, or both of those modifications should provide more 'give' with the rear latch locked,  without losing much support.

 

Might not work as well as the HSP on the Ke$$ler, but should be interesting on a powder board.

[philw]

I tried the boots on my Kessler SL at our local indoor slope today.

Thoughts:

• They ride fine, the same as ski boots except they sit better in the bindings than standard DIN ski boots.
• @pokkis's point - that the forward lean adjuster doesn't change much - is correct; whilst my front boot seemed fine at the standard setting (plus 1 degree toe lift), the rear although at the maximum incline was still pretty upright and felt kind of weird. It rode fine, but felt like I had "too much" back foot. This is basically dust on hardpack, all artificial.
• I didn't try riding in "walk mode" as my riding requires me to be able to push forwards and backwards on the boots. I didn't dick around with the tongues or the power straps, but I don't fasten stuff like that particularly tight, which gives a bit of play in the system.

They worked out of the box without modification, but I did learn on ski boots. 

For perfection, I need to get more lean into that back foot. I could try stacking more heel lift - I have 3 degrees on there - but I think that's not the best approach. I could modify or replace the lean control with one which significantly increases the angle (the boot cuff will easily support any sensible forward lean). Or finally I could install a third party spring system, if those include forward-lean control. Or I could try to build one. I actually only need one (for the rear boot), but there you go.

The Phantom springs look interesting, once they start to ship. Meanwhile, does anyone want to sell me a spring kit, or publish a parts list for that? Otherwise I'll have to buy beer for some mechanical engineering students

[Lurch]

Phil 1 deg lift on front - fair to say the B/Lands have only small internal ramp?

I had some in hand yesterday - impressive.

[Gremlin]

@pokkis, your reservations about riding these outside of powder seem to be mostly due to bail fitment. Correct?

How is the lateral stiffness on these? I handled a pair in the store and they seemed pretty rigid.

@Beckmann AG, as to your comments about using the cuffs vs riding through the feet. I would figure with a sufficiently heavy rear spring these could be made to ride closer to typical hardboots. Do you think that's the case?

A pair of these with a stiff spring setup for the hard snow go-fast, and a soft setup for the trees and pow would be everything I could ask for.

Additionally, what rate of die spring are people finding success with for spring systems? I'd like to make myself a set without needing to buy an unnecessary range for experimentation.

[lonbordin]

My one stop bookmarks for Backland's threads and developments:  

http://splitboard.com/talk/topic/atomic-backlands-thoughts-on-mods/page/5/

https://www.extremecarving.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=13406&sid=acc3393dd300e42eb5553079707d58c3

 

 

Edited February 13, 2019 by lonbordin
4 me

[neanderthal]

This is what I have been waiting for!

Finally a spring system with walk mode. 

PLEASE port this to the other popular hardboots - UPZ, Deeluxe & Northwave .

 

[Beckmann AG]

2 hours ago, Gremlin said:

as to your comments about using the cuffs vs riding through the feet. I would figure with a sufficiently heavy rear spring these could be made to ride closer to typical hardboots. Do you think that's the case?

Not from what I've seen so far. At least not at steeper angles.  

The tech toe is somewhat smaller than on a 'normal' boot, and if you need to punch the shell for toe clearance, it gets smaller still. 

The heel ledge is also scaled down, as the intent is to use a tech binding (with pin engagement) and the ledge is probably intended mostly for crampon use.

Combine that with a good amount of sole rocker, and a nicely knobby Vibram type sole, and you're going to have a reasonable amount of lateral 'give', especially if you use the boot cuff as a lever.

There's a lot of potential there, but also a fair number of considerations depending on intended use, and also binding/board choice. Flex goes well beyond spring mechanisms, as there's so much less plastic involved in both shell and cuff.

 

4 hours ago, Lurch said:

fair to say the B/Lands have only small internal ramp?

Will try to remember to take a measure tomorrow.

[Gremlin]

I'd missed or forgotten how loaded with info the ec thread is. Guess my initial skim didn't take well enough.

The ledges are certainly significantly smaller. I've been considering ways to make them both larger and more resilient. I think it would be possible to make a secondary ledge that screws into the hole the rear metal bit is, covers and expands the existing ledge, and is pinned or bolted through the sides back into the heel. Fill those gaps in the sides with epoxy, and it might be pretty solid. Not quite as light and probably not skiing them again, but respectively that's not my primary goal and I don't care. For the front something that bolts though into the pin holes might work, and could even be removable on the uphill.

I wonder if several strategic lugs could be removed and appropriate pieces screwed up into the sole. Not sure how thick it is, probably not very.

Despite being thin and light the plastic seemed pretty friggin stiff when I was handling them. I was told from all the carbon. Curious to hear anecdotal comparisons.

Nothing clever from me addressing the rockered sole. Custom matching binding blocks?

[Beckmann AG]

18 minutes ago, Gremlin said:

Custom matching binding blocks?

That could work, and would more or less eliminate the need to cut/trim the sole nubs. Maybe print a plastic cover for the existing binding blocks?

->Implemented a fix for better toe flip contact this evening. Involved welding, so it's probably beyond the range of most enthusiasts...

 The heel could be addressed with a custom bail, or fitting a slimmer bail from a different binding. 

Suppose you could also carve out a better bail groove with a small ball-end grinder. Part of the problem there is the larger diameter bails just don't settling into the heel. Like trying to palm a basketball wearing a catcher's mitt.

The shells may be stiff, but they're not intended to see the side/combined loads inherent to snowboarding, so the stiffer plastic may crack.

Or may not. Time will tell.

 

 

 

[philw]

Failure Modes
Time will tell, certainly. Most hard snowboarding boots were essentially ski boot designs, so also not intended for those loads.

Ramps
The internal ramp seems small, although I've not got the technology to measure it.

Forward Lean
I don't want to have a "high heel" on my back foot, which may be one way to address the lack-of-lean on the back foot, but it's not quite the same thing and really I like to ride with that knee bent, which I would not achieve with a high heel. The easiest way to get that would probably be some modification to the place the existing walk/ride lever bolts in. Has anyone built something like that? I'm thinking either I need some sort of interstitial plate to drop the outside part of the lever somewhat, or just drill the liners for a lower mounting point for the whole mechanism.

Springs
I contacted our own @DRUPI and the Phantom people to see if I can get springs from them. I don't really need "suspension" but I need more lean.

Splitboard people are trying to make Backlands work like their soft boots. That's not me, but maybe I can use their adaptors. EC people are trying to make Backlands more flexible, again that's not precisely my issue, but their solutions also give lean adjustment.

Binding Interface
I'm not sure if anyone's worried about this, but I can't emphasize too much how solid the interface between these and the F2s is. One major advantage of Intec for me was that I found it a more positive boot/binding interface than traditional hard bindings gave. With these boots, that interface feels very solid to me.
 

[pokkis]

Ramp, you can measure it with phone app quite easily.

[Beckmann AG]

Ramp in a 23 shell is greater than 6. 

 

[philw]

I think my phone is bigger than my foot  But I tried using my phone to measure the angle on my pinball machine (it should be six degrees) and it didn't seem accurate enough. I kind of intend to buy a little tool for measuring angles, but I haven't had the time yet. 

I was thinking more about my "forward lean" issue. What I really need isn't a spring - I will try one when I can buy one, but all I really need is a bit more lean. What if I got a small chunk of aluminium and drilled and filed it to fit into the place on the boot where the existing lean adjuster clips in. It would be an extension for that black bit with the metal rod in it. So a block of aluminium which slips behind the rod and sticks up a bit, and which has a similar little rod about a centimeter higher than the current one. Then I could just stick that little block in there, maybe fixing it with a screw, and then clip the orange lean adjuster down onto the new rod, which would be 1cm above the current one.

I think I need to invent a "forward lean extender", not a spring system. Hmm, I wonder how much beer I'll need to pour down mechanical engineering students to get that built.
--

Or better, maybe if I put a shim inside the shell which just pushes the ankle forward at the top a bit, maybe that will do it. I shall experiment with "internal forward lean increase" systems: IFLI Ⓒ.

Edited February 14, 2019 by philw
Add IFLI

[Beckmann AG]

8 hours ago, philw said:

Or better, maybe if I put a shim inside the shell which just pushes the ankle forward at the top a bit, maybe that will do it.

I've used a mitten to good effect on more than one occasion. 

Could probably use a few slices of day-old pizza as well. Neatly wrapped, of course.

[philw]

A pizza shim would have been perfect, with the added benefit of being emergency rations should I get benighted.

However I located a couple of demountable plastic "spoilers" on an old pair of Indy Suzuka boots. I chopped off the bits of those which stick out, and they give me multiple lean options with up to about a centimeter of forward displacement, which I think will probably do the job. Sorted, and light weight.

Edited February 15, 2019 by philw

[charliechocolate]

@philw, curious to see if you've put more days on your set up and what your impressions are.

End of season sales might be a good time to snag a pair.

Edited April 4, 2019 by charliechocolate

[philw]

I've been grounded by my builders running late... I'm aiming to get to Iceland at the end of April, but so far I've not had any more snow I'm afraid... I shall certainly post back once I know for sure.

[LambertoMI]

I have been riding AT for 15 years now.  They are stiff and light.  I switched over because of how light they were.  Never looked back.  I have some deluxe that perform well, but I find the AT from black diamond so comfy.  

[b0ardski]

fit is everything, performance is secondary

[philw]

Quote

curious to see if you've put more days on your set up and what your impressions are.

I spent a week in Iceland riding end of season snow. It's been a poor snow year here, with refrozen rained on rotten snow. The top-to-bottom (about 1,000 vertical meters down to sea level) vertical give a binary transition from "too hard" to "too soft". The beer's expensive too. And don't get me started on the pickled Herring.

Anyway, boot-wise, it's not really a fair test, but I've not really noticed the boots, which is a good thing.

• They seem kind of small, and I worry that I may get cold toes in seriously cold conditions... I may end up buying heaters for the dead of winter, which kind of defeats the object of saving weight.
• Stiffness-wise I've no problems - I'm running these with F2 Race Ti bindings which are fairly flexible and although the shells are stiff, there's play in the inners too. I'm a hard booter, and these are hard boots. 
• As I probably said before, the forward-lean range isn't great, and I like my back leg with lots of lean. I tried to use a shim (from an old Indy boot) to push the top of my back calf forward.... that worked, but it felt a bit wrong and in practice moved about as I rode, eventually being ejected into my pants leg! I gave up on that, and just rode, which worked ok.
• I did have some issues (in this snow) with "disciplining the front of my board" - that is, the front of my board was chattering a bit on some of the softer snow. I have that on video, and although a soft booter had a similar issue, I think it's my set-up as I'd not expect it. I tried to push more on my back foot which I think helped. Conclusion: I still need to do something about the back leg forward-lean before I'm happy.

I don't want to dick with my set-up in the middle of a heli week, but future plans:

1. I have a standard three-degree wedge under the back foot on these F2s. Once I'm home I'll switch that up to six-degrees, which may solve the problem.
2. Maybe I can drill the shell to get more lean out of the back boot.
3. Phantom are supposed to be producing some spring kits which may be usable to do what I want, although I don't really need the spring thing or the weight.
4. I can probably get someone to make me a bigger bit of aluminium than the standard "walk" lever, which will do the job.

 

[philw]

And an update.. I thought I may as well try walk mode on the rear foot... that works pretty well, it's a feel which is kind of soft, but it turns out that on reasonably soft snow (this is not powder!) I don't need the fore-aft rigidity of the rear boot much. I switched that one to walk and then forgot about it. The riding was better today, but that could have been the snow as much as this change. That said, I rode one 1000m pitch which was frozen sastrugi all the way down and the boots were fine. Hmm.