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Getting back into the game - Hard Boot Package Advice/ Opinions


SHREDSURF

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Well, after about 20+ years away from the hard boot riding world, I am ready to jump back in.

For the past 10 years I've been riding a soft boot set-up (Burton Driver X Boots, K2 Zeppelin 164, K2 Auto Bindings). A pretty standard soft boot setup with what used to be (2008) the stiffest soft boot on the market. I can carve a pretty decent set of turns with this setup, but the riding is not at the super deep carve level I want to try to get back to. I sold all my alpine boards and boots (Burton PJ7, Burton Asym) a while back and after much research; I found that the alpine world has certainly come a long way since the mid 90's. I feel it's finally time to transition back over to a hard boot setup.

I am getting ready to pull the trigger on board, binding & boot package deal below through Donek & UPZ. Based on opinions and research, I feel this setup is best for my riding style. I don't plan on any hard core racing, but the faster and deeper I can go, the better! I am primarily riding solid intermediate groomers and the more cord I see, the better. 

I've gone back and forth with research on the UPZ's entire line and the Deeluxe 700T and from what I've read, I think the UPZ's give me more options and certainly get high praise.

I am 6'2" tall (182cm) & 225 lbs (102kg) 54 years young and rode old school alpine boards for 10 years back in the 90's, primarily in the Northeast, (Vermont, NH, Maine).

Here's is the $1,700.00+ package I put together:

~ Board - Donek - Voyager Free Carve - 175cm
~ Boots - UPZ 2019 RC12 Shoxxter - 28
~ Bindings - SG Performance – Race Bail

Thoughts, advice, opinions.

Thanks!

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Edited by SHREDSURF
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I don't know your age or experience level but here is my $0.02:

I started life as a skier and transitioned to softboot snowboarding. After a bit I saw some hardboot carvers and really wanted to try that. For many years I worked and worked at hardboots and could make a descent carve in ideal conditions. However, when the snow got firm or the slope got steep, I started skidding. 

I then tried a new softboot carving board (a Donek Flux) and really liked it. I still can't carve as well as those on hardboots in difficult conditions but I can carve pretty well in softer conditions. 

I think the biggest difference for me are the boot angles I can run on a wider board. A lower (nearer to perpendicular to the board) angle feels much more stable to me. I've tried to explain this to others by demonstrating just standing on the ground in shoes in both a hardboot stance as well as a softboot stance. The softboot stance is just much more stable to me. If you can ride that edge well with both feet facing nearly forward - great! I just never got comfortable with it. 

Good luck!

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I think the SGs are a little pricey for what you get.  An alternative would be the F2  RaceTitanium.  Another option is the RS - some would think they are too flexy and maybe not strong enough for a guy your size, but I have used them with no issues.  Personally I really like and recommend step-ins, F2 Intec Titanium or Titanflex would work, I run the Titanflexes.  You could also go Bomber, lots of people here use and recommend them.  My opinion is that they are on the heavy side and over-engineered, but the over-engineering appeals to many.

I thought the RC12s were pretty stiff?  Maybe others can chime in here.  Given where you are located you might be able to try on some boots.  Make sure you get heat-moldable liners.  By all accounts the stock liners on UPZ suck.

As far as boards, not familiar with that particular Donek.  However any modern freecarving board will be an improvement over your old PJ. I'd look for something with a wider waist, 20+ cm, to give you some flexibility in stance.

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Welcome home @SHREDSURF

I think you can consider a few things, but it's just my loose change (apx 2 cents worth), so don't take any of it too seriously:

  • Bindings: I'd save my pennies and get a set of F2 Race Titanium over the SG (because $ and proven results). I think forum member @Alexey is currently selling new ones for $200 shipped. Or you could get a used pair on the forum for $100-150.
  • Boots: Might be worth making sure UPZ are the right boot for you. UPZ are for narrow-ish heel and medium+ toebox. Deeluxe are for wide-ish heel and narrow-ish toebox. Also, general consensus is the liner in the UPZ is garbo and most people replace them with Intuition or Palau. I like these liners for $130 shipped. You can probably get a deal on the forum for $200-300 for boots.
  • Boards: Coiler is also worth a look for boards. Should be cheaper than the Voyager but it can be with a titanal layer, fully customised to you and you can add things like plate inserts and ptex topsheets basically at the stock cost, if you feel that way inclined. Donek can do this too, but at a (much) higher cost. I'm happy with my Donek and Coiler. Plate mount inserts are valuable in my experience. Might be worth posting a WTB here on the forum. I'm sure you can snag a a 2018 board with 10 days on it that's what you want for $400-500.
  • Isolation plates: Maybe too early to talk of these, so I won't, but I love them for a multitude of reasons and never ride without them, now. I like the Apex Race V2 plate. Bomber, Donek and many others also make plates. Used floating plates go for $200-500 in the classifieds.
1 hour ago, Neil Gendzwill said:

I thought the RC12s were pretty stiff?  Maybe others can chime in here.  Given where you are located you might be able to try on some boots.  Make sure you get heat-moldable liners.  By all accounts the stock liners on UPZ suck.

In stiffness they go AT8 (soft) < RC12 (normal, everyday carving) < RC12R (race)

Edited by daveo
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Our for sale forums have you partially covered:

RC-10s in size 28, $300

F2 race titanium, $200

Get a good set of liners for the RC-10s, find yourself a board and you are good to go.

I highly recommend Coiler.  Too late to get an order into Bruce for this year but they pop up for sale used from time to time, just watch the forums.

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I agree with Neil - think seriously about step-ins. As I've gotten older the process of bending over to latch in has less and less appeal. It's not the same as latching into softies because higher angles make it much more awkward. I ride Cateks with TD3 receivers because I like weird canting angles but the F2 and Bombers are good also. If you're still in Vt you might want to stop by the shop at Okemo - they have the Donek Metal FC in stock at half price. Not sure it's the same board as you pictured but it's the same graphics and a 20cm waist. They also have the Proteus 170 which you might like - old-school pop out of the turns with metal smoothness.

Edited by Jonny
misspelling
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F2 Ti Race Step ins. 👍 I'm 6'1" and 200. It's nice not having to negotiate around my belly to get at toe bails.

If you're set on Sean building you something, consider the Flux.  It really is a versatile board, especially for the robust conditions we have in the northeast.  I have a few built with 22cm waists for us bigger guys that I ride with hardboots.  I'd be happy to meet up at Mountain Creek if you'd like to try them out. 

 

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14 minutes ago, Kneel said:

F2 Ti Race Step ins. 👍 I'm 6'1" and 200. It's nice not having to negotiate around my belly to get at toe bails.

It's not just for fitness issues.  I ride a lot with skiers, and it is nice to just ride off the lift and step in without holding them up waiting for me to sit on my ass and strap in.  If you ever get stuck on the flats, it sure is nice to just pull the T-handle to get out, skate along until it gets downhill again, and then click in on the move without losing any momentum.  No floppy toe-click dragging on the ground while you're skating, either.   Pulling into the liftline is great too, just yank the handle and you're out, rather than having to bend over and maybe lose sight-lines in a crowd or something.

The downsides are:

- They are a bit stiffer than the traditional bindings, given everything else is the same
- The heel can ice up causing issues with stepping in, make sure you check that you are solidly in
- The cable or pin mechanism can fail, leaving you without a working binding.  Some people keep spares.

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3 hours ago, daveo said:

Welcome home @SHREDSURF

I think you can consider a few things, but it's just my loose change (apx 2 cents worth), so don't take any of it too seriously:

  • Bindings: I'd save my pennies and get a set of F2 Race Titanium over the SG (because $ and proven results). I think forum member @Alexey is currently selling new ones for $200 shipped. Or you could get a used pair on the forum for $100-150.
  • Boots: Might be worth making sure UPZ are the right boot for you. UPZ are for narrow-ish heel and medium+ toebox. Deeluxe are for wide-ish heel and narrow-ish toebox. Also, general consensus is the liner in the UPZ is garbo and most people replace them with Intuition or Palau. I like these liners for $130 shipped. You can probably get a deal on the forum for $200-300 for boots.
  • Boards: Coiler is also worth a look for boards. Should be cheaper than the Voyager but it can be with a titanal layer, fully customised to you and you can add things like plate inserts and ptex topsheets basically at the stock cost, if you feel that way inclined. Donek can do this too, but at a (much) higher cost. I'm happy with my Donek and Coiler. Plate mount inserts are valuable in my experience. Might be worth posting a WTB here on the forum. I'm sure you can snag a a 2018 board with 10 days on it that's what you want for $400-500.
  • Isolation plates: Maybe too early to talk of these, so I won't, but I love them for a multitude of reasons and never ride without them, now. I like the Apex Race V2 plate. Bomber, Donek and many others also make plates. Used floating plates go for $200-500 in the classifieds.

In stiffness they go AT8 (soft) < RC12 (normal, everyday carving) < RC12R (race)

Yes sir, the RC12, is reportedly for normal, every day carving...exactly what I am looking for.

Although Sean at Donek is offering a great package deal for the board & boot with the Deeluxe 700T...I am still on the fence with the Deeluxe vs. the UPZ.   

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4 hours ago, Neil Gendzwill said:

I think the SGs are a little pricey for what you get.  An alternative would be the F2  RaceTitanium.  Another option is the RS - some would think they are too flexy and maybe not strong enough for a guy your size, but I have used them with no issues.  Personally I really like and recommend step-ins, F2 Intec Titanium or Titanflex would work, I run the Titanflexes.  You could also go Bomber, lots of people here use and recommend them.  My opinion is that they are on the heavy side and over-engineered, but the over-engineering appeals to many.

I thought the RC12s were pretty stiff?  Maybe others can chime in here.  Given where you are located you might be able to try on some boots.  Make sure you get heat-moldable liners.  By all accounts the stock liners on UPZ suck.

As far as boards, not familiar with that particular Donek.  However any modern freecarving board will be an improvement over your old PJ. I'd look for something with a wider waist, 20+ cm, to give you some flexibility in stance.

I am pretty much sold on the Donek Voyager, it's now down to the bindings and boots. I've heard the F2's wont hold my 225 lbs. so I'm still looking around. Same with the boots, Deeluxe 700T vs. UPZ RC12.

Thanks for advice!

4 hours ago, daveo said:

Welcome home @SHREDSURF

I think you can consider a few things, but it's just my loose change (apx 2 cents worth), so don't take any of it too seriously:

  • Bindings: I'd save my pennies and get a set of F2 Race Titanium over the SG (because $ and proven results). I think forum member @Alexey is currently selling new ones for $200 shipped. Or you could get a used pair on the forum for $100-150.
  • Boots: Might be worth making sure UPZ are the right boot for you. UPZ are for narrow-ish heel and medium+ toebox. Deeluxe are for wide-ish heel and narrow-ish toebox. Also, general consensus is the liner in the UPZ is garbo and most people replace them with Intuition or Palau. I like these liners for $130 shipped. You can probably get a deal on the forum for $200-300 for boots.
  • Boards: Coiler is also worth a look for boards. Should be cheaper than the Voyager but it can be with a titanal layer, fully customised to you and you can add things like plate inserts and ptex topsheets basically at the stock cost, if you feel that way inclined. Donek can do this too, but at a (much) higher cost. I'm happy with my Donek and Coiler. Plate mount inserts are valuable in my experience. Might be worth posting a WTB here on the forum. I'm sure you can snag a a 2018 board with 10 days on it that's what you want for $400-500.
  • Isolation plates: Maybe too early to talk of these, so I won't, but I love them for a multitude of reasons and never ride without them, now. I like the Apex Race V2 plate. Bomber, Donek and many others also make plates. Used floating plates go for $200-500 in the classifieds.

In stiffness they go AT8 (soft) < RC12 (normal, everyday carving) < RC12R (race)

Thanks, much better advice and opinions here vs. Facebook. 

Thank you!

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I was in EXACTLY the same situation as you... until today. Well almost, I’m totally new to hard booting, but felt pretty confident carving my various soft boot setups. I’m also in your weight range.

Decided to go all-in on a new setup with size 27 UPZ 12, SG Perf bindings, and the SG The Cult 169 board. This was all based on recommendations from the forum, shops, and the fact that I knew the Deeluxe 225s don’t fit width wise, even at a size up 28. 

Since im a noob I don’t have any real wisdom to share other than some ininitial indoor observations:

The UPZ boots seem to fit true to size. I measured 27.5cm on both feet, and after heat molding, the Size 27 RC12s are still snug as hell.

The SG bindings seem great. The metal base plates look aerospase grade! Lift and can’t adjustment is limited to shims, and you only get one size. Not sure if that will be a problem moving forward, but most other bindings besides Catek are limited to shims too... so level playing field.

The SG board feels like a beast. I was worried I’d be on the far end of the weight range but it feels stiff as hell to me in hand so I’m sure it will be fine for fun carving. I went with the high end of their suggested binding angles at 45/38 at reference width, and could def go even lower angles if I want to. 

69B582E2-CE28-4FD2-81B8-C9474FB19144.jpeg

Edited by Grip
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1 hour ago, Neil Gendzwill said:

The F2 race titanium or titanflex will absolutely hold your 225 lbs.   F2s are used in world cup racing, I think if they can take the strain there you should be ok.  The RS are the lighter model that some recommend against for stronger riders.

I really like the idea of stepping in...you know, as a old guy.

So I'm looking closer at the F2 intec's. Coupling the bindings with the board with Donek is a solid deal.

Thanks for the insight and advice!

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Don't mess around with your choice of bindings.  Bomber step ins for bigger guys is the way you want to go.  You want to ride, so keep it simple.  Deeluxe 700 with step in too.  Everyone likes UPZ, but they seem to spend a while trying to get them dialed in?  Good luck.  The guys at Donek won't steer you wrong.

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3 hours ago, SHREDSURF said:

still on the fence with the Deeluxe vs. the UPZ.   

Boot's - UPZ's are a Really Small footprint...I found them a tough fit for my regular feet or  with my Bomber bindings....not impossible just much more fiddling  needed than I wanted to deal with.  If you got anything outside of a normal foot I'd go with the Deeluxe

Bindings - Whatever you choose Step In's are OMG!

Boards - Sean is great to work with but I think Donek's are right up there at the top of the "Stiff" Board list...like Racer stiff.  Do you got the legs at 54 years young to bend a stiffer board ?...all day long?  My recollection of Burton PJ's are they were a noodle compared to most modern boards, especially  Donek's.   

Board Width - Go with a wider board...around 20 will give you more angles to play with and it's less stress on the knees if you take a lot of breaks on the hill.

Don't get me wrong,  a stiff board is Great!  but not utilitarian if you drove to spend the day carving and your legs are toast for the day after the first 2 or 3 hours!   Were the same size  6'2"  225lbs  Trust me......I've had Great stiff boards I loved...but my legs hated me for it!   

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Can't help with much, but I absolutely recommend the step ins. Once I understood how the binding works and what it would take to come out of the binding I was sold. I broke about a dozen bails over the years. Had some bad releases too. Once in race course and took gates sliding into my thighs. That sucked. I never worry about releasing now. I still have some regular plates I ride in the powder some, but if I am carving hard it is in the SI binding. 

Oh I do have a belly to work around a little too, but that isn't why I would do it. You fat bastards need to do some yoga. 

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I’ve been very happy with my Donek.  I too thought stiffer was better until I spoke with Sean about building me a board.  Note that you and I are similar in weight, height, ice coast locale, riding level, etc   Sean’s recommendation was a decambered nose with a shorter radius than the rest of the board.   Enables you to enter turns with less effort yet the rest of the board remains cambered enough to give solid edge hold.  Result? Quicker turns across the narrow ice coast slopes and a more forgiving ride when you hit the inevitable late day New England chop. 

As for boots, love my Deeluxes. Have two pairs. Can’t say I’ve tried UPZs but did try Heads and (way back) Burtons.  If you have high arches like me, Deeluxe were the only ones I could wear comfortably.  

Bindings? I use TD SW SIs for my Donek and race plates for my twin tip board.  I agree with others on here that the TDS are heavy and maybe overbuilt but they are rock solid.  I am considering trying some F2s. 

Good luck and see you out there!

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Personally, I've never had an issue with slightly bending my knees, reaching over a bit and flipping a clip a few degrees. Pulling a lever is faster of course. But, I actually find getting enough snow out of the heel of my boot for proper engagement for step ins rather annoying. It doesn't happen always, but when it does, it sometimes takes me 5 times to get my damn heel engaged properly. I've never had to sit while clipping in but I've had to to step in funnily enough. 

In saying that, I'm new to SI, and now use it on my rear heel on my powder board on my frankentitanflex bindings.

Edited by daveo
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