David Kirk Posted November 9, 2018 Report Share Posted November 9, 2018 I understood how the older Allflex plates worked but the newer version with the springs in the middle is confusing to me. Does anyone know how it functions? dave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SunSurfer Posted November 9, 2018 Report Share Posted November 9, 2018 Join the club. I don't even understand the benefit of the constrained isolation provided by the original AllFlex plates. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobdea Posted November 9, 2018 Report Share Posted November 9, 2018 Yeah, feel you there! Haven’t ridden one but it almost sound like connecting a front and rear hangl (which I have done!) it worked but was not super pleasant either. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corey Posted November 9, 2018 Report Share Posted November 9, 2018 There are interesting pictures on their site with more detail: https://www.allflexplate.com/ENG/Features It looks like it doesn't lock at all. In simplistic terms, it looks like it provides a similar effect to a VIST plate but with lower friction and the ability for the plate and board to bend differently. I'd like to try one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Kirk Posted November 9, 2018 Author Report Share Posted November 9, 2018 The standard (older maybe?) plate has a 3-bar link at each end to compensate for the length difference when the board flexes under the plate....while at the same time there are hinged attachments under the center of the plate that stabilize the plate and keep it from wanting to move sideways under load. At least that's what it looks like the drawings show and and it seems like that would work very well. The newer style with the seam in the middle of the plate and the two springs holding the front and rear sections of the plate apart is the part I'm confused about. It looks like it is actually two plates (front and rear) that are attached to the board via articulating hinges and these two plates push on each other through the coil spring. I presume one could adjust the spring to get a different amount of flex. Does that make sense? I'd really love to try either. dave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SunSurfer Posted November 10, 2018 Report Share Posted November 10, 2018 (edited) Reading the Features page on the AllFlex site I think they're saying that their plate can only allow for the chord depth of the bending board beneath the plate to be 6.4mm or less. That limit is produced by the horizontal arms under the middle of the plate. That's what I mean by constrained isolation. When I bench test my own boards flex with a Bomber plate on them the chord depth is easily greater than 10mm. Creating any kind of flexible break in the middle of an isolation plate will pretty much remove the torsional stiffening effect of the plate. Maybe with a longitudinally and torsionally stiff, long SCR, race board these issues are less important, and the shock absorber effect of the AllFlex is the primary aim. That said, having the attachment points at the extreme end of the plate potentially maximises the torsional stiffening effects. That's really what I don't understand. There seem to me to be conflicting results from the design features. Edited November 10, 2018 by SunSurfer 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WinterGold Posted November 10, 2018 Report Share Posted November 10, 2018 There are so many questions here ... I try to answer a few ... - the Allfex plate (all models) does not influence the flex of the board and the amount of travel of the board ... at least not more than other plate systems ... the idea is that the board flexes freely under the plate and it does that perfectly. - the Allflex plate flexes quite a lot (almost as much as the board itself, unlike the sketches on their homepage - there are a few pictures of me and Otter riders floating around on FB, Insta and even on this forum) - board feel is pretty good (enough connection points with the board) - the new spring plate is connected under the plate (different connection than the normal Allflex plates where the connection is split), roughly the plate helps with the classic pedaling motion, turn initiation is smoother and easier (faster), you will see this model under the feet of several WC riders like Alexander Payer and Benjamin Karl for this season (especially for SL), the springs can be tightened to influence the flex a little and there are two nuts (one for turn initiation and one for turn exit), loosen them for faster reaction and tighten them for a stabler ride - don‘t imagine the differences between the different models to be huge, but they are noticeable for the technical riders - all the models dampen very well, distribute the power very effectively across the edges, are very stable and provide lots of board feedback 5 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corey Posted November 10, 2018 Report Share Posted November 10, 2018 39 minutes ago, WinterGold said: there are two nuts (one for turn initiation and one for turn exit), loosen them for faster reaction and tighten them for a stabler ride Wow, that's bending my brain a bit... Please post detail pictures if you can. Gerald's Instagram has this picture of the spring plate, along with other cool carving shots: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WinterGold Posted November 12, 2018 Report Share Posted November 12, 2018 Corey, on the long screw in the middle there are two nuts and a spring - with the outer nut you regulate the length of the screw (the longer the less travel at turn initiation) and the inner nut regulates the spring tension (rebound coming out of the turn). Hope that helps ... Zoom in on the picture! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lowrider Posted November 13, 2018 Report Share Posted November 13, 2018 Wow a plate that articulates. Been there done that . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pauleleven Posted December 2, 2018 Report Share Posted December 2, 2018 But also, we have to keep in mind that for racers their preferred style and stance comes first, almost never will they angulate to the point where the board travels more than the range provided by the plate (more than 6mm) and hits the "constraint". In order to do that, they just get custom boards for the style they need, to make sure they only need to angulate so much. Unlike us amateurs who buy a board and figure out how to upgrade and work for the board, rather than to buy and adjust everything to work for us... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack M Posted December 4, 2018 Report Share Posted December 4, 2018 On 12/1/2018 at 8:39 PM, pauleleven said: But also, we have to keep in mind that for racers their preferred style and stance comes first, almost never will they angulate to the point where the board travels more than the range provided by the plate (more than 6mm) and hits the "constraint". In order to do that, they just get custom boards for the style they need, to make sure they only need to angulate so much. Unlike us amateurs who buy a board and figure out how to upgrade and work for the board, rather than to buy and adjust everything to work for us... I doubt that very much. Boards bend a lot, way more than 6mm. Have a look at the “Bend it” thread in the Photos forum. Racers angulate and bend their boards too, you can be sure about that. The Allflex plate is designed to flex with the board beyond the 6mm. Actually I don't even see it coming off the board at all in these pics... 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shred Gruumer Posted December 4, 2018 Report Share Posted December 4, 2018 So how many Kilos is that chunk of Aluminum? My chairlift knee screams just looking at it...I'm fighting these days to get the lightest thing on my feetsies... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Kirk Posted December 4, 2018 Author Report Share Posted December 4, 2018 I feel silly asking this but..... On a rigid plate (like the Boiler plate) the plate stays flat and the board is free to move around under it....the board can get closer to or further from the bottom of the plate in doing its job. I've ridden this type of plate and can feel that working. It allows the board to more closly follow the surface enhancing edge hold while reducing rider vibration and shock....I get it. So here's the silly question - if the plate is moving along with the board (causing the boots to follow the curve of the board) how does the Allflex work? I don't doubt that it does work, and work well, but if it flexes with the board it's much like a simple riser and less something that isolates the riders feet from the movement of the board. I'm obviously missing how the things work and how the 4-bar linkage hinges at each end help the rider. So what is the Allflex doing? dave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SunSurfer Posted December 4, 2018 Report Share Posted December 4, 2018 2 hours ago, David Kirk said: I feel silly asking this but..... On a rigid plate (like the Boiler plate) the plate stays flat and the board is free to move around under it....the board can get closer to or further from the bottom of the plate in doing its job. I've ridden this type of plate and can feel that working. It allows the board to more closly follow the surface enhancing edge hold while reducing rider vibration and shock....I get it. So here's the silly question - if the plate is moving along with the board (causing the boots to follow the curve of the board) how does the Allflex work? I don't doubt that it does work, and work well, but if it flexes with the board it's much like a simple riser and less something that isolates the riders feet from the movement of the board. I'm obviously missing how the things work and how the 4-bar linkage hinges at each end help the rider. So what is the Allflex doing? dave You don't miss a trick! Quite a few people wonder the same thing and struggle to find good answers. I'm still not convinced that the AllFlex is not the snowboard isolation plate equivalent of the Emperor's new clothes story. Actually the Bomber plate, and similar designs, improve the torsional stiffness of the snowboard as well. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corey Posted December 4, 2018 Report Share Posted December 4, 2018 My theory/guess: Allflex does three things: 1. De-coupled fore/aft flex of bindings/boots/legs from the board. Imagine riding over a 1" step in the snow. As the nose climbs, it bends the board, tilting the front binding/boot/leg rearward. You can feel this if you pay attention. The plate offers some isolation in this regard, especially when everything is loaded up and bent in a carve. 2. Adds some bending stiffness while spreading load fore/aft away from the bindings. 3. Adds mass to give a stable feeling. Maybe 4: As SunSurfer suggests, if the fast guys/gals are on them then everyone else must be too to ensure they can win. Kinesio tape anyone? But I think Allflex is more than placebo. Full isolation plates like Bomber and others that came before have #1 and 3 going for them, but they feel somewhat disconnected to me. I find myself riding faster than I normally would when on them. I still take my Bomber plate with me when I go riding, but only install it if the grooming is awful. I need to try it on a boilerplate ice day, though, riding faster than normal isn't really a good idea on ice. I want to try an Allflex out of interest but I don't see myself buying one. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lurch Posted December 4, 2018 Report Share Posted December 4, 2018 That article @Puhutes quoted in the All Sports thread offers some thoughts on Allflex too 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lowrider Posted December 5, 2018 Report Share Posted December 5, 2018 1 hour ago, Corey said: Full isolation plates like Bomber and others that came before have #1 and 3 going for them, but they feel somewhat disconnected to me. I find myself riding faster than I normally would when on them. I still take my Bomber plate with me when I go riding, but only install it if the grooming is awful. I need to try it on a boilerplate ice day, though, riding faster than normal isn't really a good idea on ice. Corey ice is the best time to be on your plate. With the plate evening out the pressure along the edge it makes for a full contact carve the biggest issue is allowing yourself to be committed to the execution of your turn and that's strictly a mind over matter relationship. Padded pants help ! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobdea Posted December 5, 2018 Report Share Posted December 5, 2018 Yeah, I certainly like plates on hard snow too. This may be that the plate compensates for my tendency to not push on the nose unless I concentrate on it. Reason being either how far forward the things are mounted or that they kill off some of the unnerving vibrations you get on hardpack. Hard snow is one of those types of things I really have to put my mind to dealing with it when I actually do that, it does work. The plate I think doesn’t so much improve performance in that type of conditions as it possibly covers up bad habits to some extent. Maybe just a pleasant side effect of the general nature of the things? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SunSurfer Posted December 5, 2018 Report Share Posted December 5, 2018 (edited) http://gss-snowboard.com/en/告知/アルフレックスプレート仕様書（201819モデル） linked page has a load of technical details about the various versions of AllFlex plate, with variation in weight, flex, torsion resistance, GS vs. slalom. I made this video to try to satisfy my own curiousity about what happened when a board equipped with an AllFlex plate is carved. To my eye, the boards scarcely bend in the depths of the turn. Whether this is due to extreme flex stiffness of Kessler elite level GS race boards or whether it is contributed in part by bending constraints imposed by the AllFlex plate is unclear. Another place to look is the FIS SmugMug Snowboard section. High definition photos of boards/plates in actual race settings. https://fis.smugmug.com/FISSnowboard Contrast what you see with the "Bend It" thread in the Photos section here on ASB. Edited December 5, 2018 by SunSurfer Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lurch Posted December 5, 2018 Report Share Posted December 5, 2018 Mother of a mountain goat - $1800 for that springer on the Japanese site. I hope it comes with Nevins superman suit.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
noschoolrider Posted December 5, 2018 Report Share Posted December 5, 2018 14 hours ago, SunSurfer said: To my eye, the boards scarcely bend in the depths of the turn. Whether this is due to extreme flex stiffness of Kessler elite level GS race boards or whether it is contributed in part by bending constraints imposed by the AllFlex plate is unclear. Another place to look is the FIS SmugMug Snowboard section. High definition photos of boards/plates in actual race settings. https://fis.smugmug.com/FISSnowboard Contrast what you see with the "Bend It" thread in the Photos section here on ASB. The images below are from the 2018 Kayseri PGS: 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pauleleven Posted December 6, 2018 Report Share Posted December 6, 2018 On 12/4/2018 at 1:16 PM, Jack M said: I doubt that very much. Boards bend a lot, way more than 6mm. Have a look at the “Bend it” thread in the Photos forum. Racers angulate and bend their boards too, you can be sure about that. The Allflex plate is designed to flex with the board beyond the 6mm. Actually I don't even see it coming off the board at all in these pics... Ok, holy crap, that just destroyed my entire understanding of these, i always thought these plates, boiler and sg included, are designed to be the immovable object that lets the board do whatever under them.... So if we were to draw a bend felling curve, when the board exceeds the range that these plates let them bend, you have the added stiffness from the plate suddenly to the stiffness of the board???? Wouldn’t such a spike in stiffness mess with it a bit? But also the guy just figured out a proprietary alloy that has a very good deformation curve for snowboarding..... On another note, boiler and sg plates have like an inch of travel or something? That doesnt sound like the board will fully deform freely, when that limit hits thats gonna be quite a jerk, literally! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SunSurfer Posted December 6, 2018 Report Share Posted December 6, 2018 Boiler & SG plates, and any similar fixed axle + sliding axle design will allow any reasonable chord depth to freely form as the board bends. Revise your geometry of chords, sagittae and arcs and their relationship to get your head round this. What this discussion would really benefit from is someone making a video of an AllFlex plate being bench tested as the board is flexed beneath it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack M Posted December 6, 2018 Report Share Posted December 6, 2018 1 hour ago, SunSurfer said: What this discussion would really benefit from is someone making a video of an AllFlex plate being bench tested as the board is flexed beneath it. Yeah, I've been thinking this. @Termin8tor is getting one, he's near me. I'll see if he wants to go in on this project. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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