Carbon construction

[charliechocolate]

Apart from the obvious weight savings and extra stiffness relative to fibreglass, in what other ways does carbon affect a board's characteristics? I guess the answer also depends on how and where the carbon is applied?

This question was motivated by seeing how the Nidecker Spectre carbon is more than twice as expensive as the regular spectre. The blurb for both products reeks of marketing BS while being light of details. I just want to know what justifies such a price and if I would even notice the difference that some carbon secret sauce brings to a board.

[lowrider]

Adding carbon adds to the cost because anything different costs more, extra work costs more, the perception of extra work costs more as well as the fact it's tougher to work with cutting machining or finishing is harder on tools. When it comes to adding carbon it's not like you leave out the glass and substitute it with carbon. A little bit goes a long way and you can only be successful after experimentation and hopefully successful experimentation. A few stringers in the correct place and you have secret sauce. You might notice a difference if someone told you but the major difference would be from ordering a board with certain characteristics that you desired and having it perform as ordered. As far as marketing BS whatever sells seems to be the capitol way of doing business these days so pick a reputable builder and cross your fingers. If you hype it up enough after you ride it you can always pass it on to another even if it does't contain enough of the secret sauce for your liking and then try the whole process again ! 

[RobertAlexander]

Made a full carbon FC board to see what it would ride like.  2 layers of 4 ounce 0/90 degree on top , same 2 layers on bottom.  It was  extremely hyper,  others rode it and said the same.  You first needed to be in shape to ride it, and second,  you needed to be on top of your game at all times when riding it.   That is probably why glass is put in with the carbon or vice versa, to tame it down a bit.

Edited September 30, 2018 by RobertAlexander

[Beckmann AG]

19 hours ago, charliechocolate said:

Apart from the obvious weight savings and extra stiffness relative to fibreglass, in what other ways does carbon affect a board's characteristics? I guess the answer also depends on how and where the carbon is applied?

Depending on what else goes into the board, and how much goo there is between the board and rider, using carbon in the construction should enhance snow feel (or a sense of what is happening at the area of engagement), which then affects the feedback loop controlling equilibrium, appropriate inputs etc.

This a demonstrable principle with regard to alpine ski boots (Dodge), XC ski boots(Salomon, et al), as well as cycling shoes (Sidi) and select hand tools (LightningStik pole pruners).

Depending again on construction, and fiber choice/orientation, the use of carbon can serve as a filter to enhance rider comfort. This is readily apparent if one swaps out an aluminum/steel road bike fork for one made of CF.

By way of selective fiber alignment, a board can be made stiffer in torsion without making it too stiff longitudinally. 

Carbon fabric varies somewhat in cost depending on supplier. From memory, 'linear' and 'hoop' runs around $22/lb, Whereas 'twill' runs closer to $27. The 'high modulus' version is considerably more expensive, but weighs less, and has other advantages.

If it's pre-preg, you'll want to store it in a chest freezer to prolong the effective life of the epoxy. A chest freezer, on account of the minimum sales quantity being far too large to fit in anything smaller.

In short, if the application is warranted, and if the end user is remotely discerning, CF can significantly enhance the utility of a product. 

[Shred Gruumer]

12 hours ago, Beckmann AG said:

Depending on what else goes into the board, and how much goo there is between the board and rider, using carbon in the construction should enhance snow feel (or a sense of what is happening at the area of engagement), which then affects the feedback loop controlling equilibrium, appropriate inputs etc.

This a demonstrable principle with regard to alpine ski boots (Dodge), XC ski boots(Salomon, et al), as well as cycling shoes (Sidi) and select hand tools (LightningStik pole pruners).

Depending again on construction, and fiber choice/orientation, the use of carbon can serve as a filter to enhance rider comfort. This is readily apparent if one swaps out an aluminum/steel road bike fork for one made of CF.

By way of selective fiber alignment, a board can be made stiffer in torsion without making it too stiff longitudinally. 

Carbon fabric varies somewhat in cost depending on supplier. From memory, 'linear' and 'hoop' runs around $22/lb, Whereas 'twill' runs closer to $27. The 'high modulus' version is considerably more expensive, but weighs less, and has other advantages.

If it's pre-preg, you'll want to store it in a chest freezer to prolong the effective life of the epoxy. A chest freezer, on account of the minimum sales quantity being far too large to fit in anything smaller.

In short, if the application is warranted, and if the end user is remotely discerning, CF can significantly enhance the utility of a product. 

My Oxess Carbon Carbon is filled with rubber joy!! Not too Snappy!! and you don't get that really Glassy sound that makes me think I'm losing my edge hold.  Love Pre Preggo..  It does matter what's underneath as stated and not just wood like a lot of the F2 carbon's are..

My Oxess's have been as close to titanal feel and sound but not..., but have a better rebound and are dam near bomb proof (have been worth the coin $$!)... I have a 10 year old one that still looks brand new...Rhino Shield... oh wait...someone do that!!

Edited October 1, 2018 by Shred Gruumer

[Jack M]

There is also the effect of dissimilar materials in the layup which further reduces vibration.  I would expect a carbon + glass or carbon + rubber board to perform better than just carbon alone.

[slopestar]

Not carbon fiber but in my personal Saber builds, I lose a layer of rubber to enhance the pop

[daveo]

I guess it varies for each manufacturer and application. I wish I knew more on the topic, also.

There is a post from a while back, which describes a tiny little bit of Oxess' carbon application specifically, I'll link it below.

On 9/2/2016 at 12:50 AM, pow4ever said:

"Boards with Titanal and carbon are a bit more damped, a bit less powerfull. Carbon boards without titanal are more powerfull, a bit less damped.
,,,"

FWIW, I can definitely see a spicy Carbon/Carbon Oxess in the crystal globe!

Edited October 1, 2018 by daveo

[carlito]

Ok.  I'm your huckleberry

I cover most of this stuff in the technology docs section on my website (exegi.ca).  Still a work in progress!  So a few dead ends on there, but the documents dealing with carbon construction and responsible weight reduction cover most of the questions people tend to bring up.  I think there's also more good stuff in there!  ha ha!  but I'll try to summarize:

Carbon fibers are stiff, strong, highly directional (anisotropic), and light.  The range of stiffness is something like three times as stiff as glass for standard modulus fibers, about 20 percent stronger, and about 70% of the weight.  Other grades of carbon increase stiffness and strength (and price!) and are almost never used in boards.  I do use a bit of higher strength standard modulus stuff (toray t700) because it was on sale, and the strength numbers were significantly better without the stiffness getting too crazy.  Bla bla bla.  So what?  What does it give me?

Basically, you can use the superior strength/stiffness to build a board that significantly lighter (better numbers allows less material to be used, and the material weighs less) and just as stiff/strong (on one end of the spectrum) or just as light and be stiffer and stronger (on the other end of the spectrum).  You could also try to land somewhere in between, maybe a little lighter, and somewhat stiffer and stronger.... 

On 9/30/2018 at 1:23 PM, RobertAlexander said:

Made a full carbon FC board to see what it would ride like.  2 layers of 4 ounce 0/90 degree on top , same 2 layers on bottom.  It was  extremely hyper,  others rode it and said the same.  You first needed to be in shape to ride it, and second,  you needed to be on top of your game at all times when riding it.   That is probably why glass is put in with the carbon or vice versa, to tame it down a bit.

This shows what happens when you "swap out" carbon for glass.  The typical glass formula (kinda industry standard) is 22 to 25 oz/sq yard triax glass sandwiching a wood core (the glass biases are 50% tip to tail, and 25% in each of the 45 degree directions, ie about 11oz tip to tail, and 5.5 each 45 degree direction - a little more for the 25 oz....  Typical core thicknesses range from 2.5mm to 8mm to 2.5mm (nose/waist/tail) in various types of wood, this is a free-carving sorta thing - definitely not a park/jib/butter board. (note!  no metal!).  In this case using 4oz of carbon from tip to tail and 4 ounces at 90 degrees (top and bottom) would yield a board with about 50 % more stiffness and not quite two thirds the strength (tip to tail) of the glass equivalent (assuming 22 oz triax) at a significant weight reduction (probably about half, a bit less, in the weight of the fibers/resin...)  Problems:  If you don't change the core thickness (thinner!) you will crank up the stiffness too much - the board will be a plank, with tightly wound tendencies to react to weight shifts.  Having a biax board will make the torsional stiffness proportionally too low in comparison to the longitudinal stiffness and the board will tend to feel "twitchy" as the lengthwise stiffness makes the sidecut try to initiate a turn on roll, then the board twists off before the board can bend into the sidecut - this will usually convince someone to leave carbon alone and stick with glass!  "this thing is shit! it's all over the place, doesn't damp anything and is basically no fun....!"  Further, the fact that the board is actually weaker now (at least tip to tail, where all boards fail) makes this even worse!  Especially using plates where the point loading of higher loads through the plane of the fibers will tend to break things on the top of the board.  Sigh.  Why bother.

Well...  Let's think outside the box a bit.  What you really want, especially in carving boards, is the board to be stiff enough longitudinally to snap back but soft enough to bend into the curve induced through sidecut geometry while remaining stiff enough to resist twist while rolling the board (remember, the sidecut/rider pressure inputs will try to bend the board lengthwise and twistwise (in torsion)).  If the board "twists-off" all hell breaks loose (so to speak):  The sidecut geometry is "reset" by the twist/release;  edge hold goes away (board washes out); and this can cycle! and you get that special fun shudder/chatter mid turn....  Carbon gives a designer a way out.  By using proportionally less fiber longitudinally and more at +/- 45 degrees one can ramp up the torsional stiffness and make the board want to turn more easily!  Further, since the board is "twisting-off" less one can get away with less sidecut making the board more stable while still easy to turn (this only goes so far!).

Shit, I tend to geek out on this stuff.  Basically, carbon works, but you gotta work with it for a while to figure out a method to the madness.  There are no right or wrong ways to make boards - materials wise - but a bunch of compromises that can be finessed to make things work;  and the best way is to try a bunch of different stuff - and ride it.  

Carbon construction will be lighter and stiffer -this can be good or bad depending on....  It better have some fibers going at +/-45 degrees (most do) - It should be thinner than an equivalent glass board or will likely be too stiff lengthwise - will feel somewhat livelier/more reactive than an equivalent glass board, sigificantly more so than a metal/glass/lotsa rubber board.  Again this can be good or bad - depending on what you want, and what the designer/builder wanted....

23 hours ago, Beckmann AG said:

Depending on what else goes into the board, and how much goo there is between the board and rider, using carbon in the construction should enhance snow feel (or a sense of what is happening at the area of engagement), which then affects the feedback loop controlling equilibrium, appropriate inputs etc.

Beckmann's point is sharp!  Be careful what you wish for. 

I guess I'll wrap up like this:  I have been doing this since the early 90's (building boards) and can build them out of anything I want.  I'm choosing carbon fiber because I like what it gives me as a rider AND as a builder.  I have built some dogs in my day - But I think those days are behind me!  ha ha ha!

 

[daveo]

1 hour ago, carlito said:

triax  biax

Can you explain these two terms to me, please?

Do you sell your boards? Got a site?

[charliechocolate]

1 hour ago, daveo said:

Can you explain these two terms to me, please?

It's how the stringers are laid up on the board. Think of a grid of carbon fibre for biax (bi-axial). For triax, think of another axis diagonally bisecting each square in the grid. Actually, I'd also like to hear it from huckleberry himself 

[SunSurfer]

 

2 hours ago, daveo said:

Do you sell your boards? Got a site?

Like the man said

Exegi.ca

Lots of fun stuff to read there. 

[Jack M]

6 hours ago, daveo said:

Can you explain these two terms to me, please?

Biaxial - fibers running in 2 directions

Triaxial - fibers running in 3 directions

The fiberglass or any fiber reinforcment used in snowboards starts out as "cloth" with the "threads" (fibers) aligned in certain directions.  Say the direction along the length of the board is 0 degrees.  Biaxial can mean that the fibers are aligned at 0 and 90, or 45 and -45.  Triaxial usually means 0, 45, -45.

0 degree fibers strengthen and stiffen the board lengthwise.  45 degree fibers strengthen and stiffen the board torsionally.  To see or imagine why, take a piece of chalk and twist it until it breaks.  The break will  be a spiral shape with the edges of the break at 45 degrees to the length of the chalk.  The forces of torsion are highest at 45 degrees.

45/-45 biaxial cloth is usually used in boards that are meant to be softer lengthwise but torsionally responsive.  This also saves some weight.

7 hours ago, carlito said:

I'm your huckleberry

Tombstone, yes!  Thanks for that information.  How is it that I'm just learning of your boards now??  Do you have any stock shapes or is it all custom?  Looks like your layup differs from other carbon topped boards like Oxess - yours is glossy, theirs is rough, what's the difference?

[daveo]

Perfecto, Jack.

[Shred Gruumer]

1 hour ago, Jack Michaud said:

 Oxess - yours is glossy, theirs is rough, what's the difference?

Its almost like prepreg ..rough feel Auto clav stuff...  then glassed up carbon...?

Edited October 2, 2018 by Shred Gruumer

[Shred Gruumer]

1 hour ago, Jack Michaud said:

How is it that I'm just learning of your boards now??

OOOOOooooo I know now....  the lacing of the edges give it away...  ...  I think I saw a board of his..in Montana..  the guy is from Idaho I believe..maybe Alberta Canada...  is it....is it  ...or wait Steve Prokavoalokavalka...  the dude with the long 200cm carver twin tip looking thing...it had a visible base showing the laced edges.."Very Cool looking"!!!

[Jack M]

13 minutes ago, Shred Gruumer said:

OOOOOooooo I know now....  the lacing of the edges give it away...  ...  I think I saw a board of his..in Montana..  the guy is from Idaho I believe..maybe Alberta Canada...  is it....is it  ...or wait Steve Prokavoalokavalka...  the dude with the long 200cm carver twin tip looking thing...it had a visible base showing the laced edges.."Very Cool looking"!!!

https://exegi.ca/about/

[Corey]

Carl makes neat boards!  Less focus on aesthetics than Oxess or the like, but what are your priorities?  Naked carbon fiber is always pretty to me.  

Here he is in the bumps at Nakiska with a big twin-tip of his making: 

 

[daveo]

21 minutes ago, Corey said:

Carl makes neat boards!  Less focus on aesthetics than Oxess or the like, but what are your priorities?  Naked carbon fiber is always pretty to me.  

Here he is in the bumps at Nakiska with a big twin-tip of his making: 

 

Some impressive heavy breathing there by the camera man.

[carlito]

Thanks Corey!  Watch me dodge rocks on my 184.... 

Jack Michaud pretty much nails the Biax/triax distinctions in his take - i especially like the bit about the stick of chalk!  Great example!  Basically anything meant to carve will be built with a triax type of construction to try to enhance torsional stiffness, Biax (0/90) boards are usually seen in the freeride/twintip category where buttering ability is seen as a feature. 

the carbon aesthetic choices are just a result of different approaches.  A lot of the stuff on my website is actually of wet topcoats - like actually just sprayed and I thought to take a picture then - it isn't usually that shiny - and I have done stuff with semi-gloss or matte finishes.  The board in the video actually has a polished epoxy topsheet (scratches a little too easy...)  The Oxess stuff is probably a topsheet (polyamide or polyethelyene) that includes a texture, but clear to see the carbon underneath.  The current favorite is the "carbonium" topsheet seen in lots of boards. 

Just clarification to the terms prepreg and autoclave.  A prepreg is simply a PRE imPREGnated composite material, that is, the reinforcing fibers (carbon, glass, Kevlar, hybrids, etc.) have the resin included with the fibers at the factory.  They come frozen, to stop the epoxy (usually) from finishing their cure cycle.  There is no inherent advantage to prepregs - it's just that they are usually impregnated with "better" epoxies than we use in the ski/snowboard industries and you don't have to mix resin as it's included in the material.  Those epoxies are usually "better" in that they resist higher temps and have increased mechanical properties compared to the typical ski/board industry epoxies.  Those advantages are not really any better for things that are typically used in temperatures below 0 degrees C ha ha!  Also the generic prepreg resin cure is at about 250 F/120 C which moves us into the thermal expansion/warping p-tex zone where you have to start to take cares about other stuff.  A cured prepreg looks like any other carbon-epoxy layup.

An autoclave is simply a heated box that can be pressurized.  You place you tooling/part into the autoclave, and turn it on.  The pressure goes up and allow the bagged part inside to be pressed using bag type tooling at higher pressures than available to vacuum bagging (at least on this planet!).  The heat allows you to use those fancy prepregs and deal with complex cure cycle requirements.  I doubt that much production is done with autoclaves as they are expensive, and their advantages can mostly be achieved with standard contact presses for boards.  Prepregs are available with lower temperature cure cycles. 

Met Shred at the Whitefish get-together last winter - He was riding a pretty mint (for 1990?) Kemper Apex 170!  I thought it was snowing a little too much for that board's degree of assymetry! ha ha!  That was a pretty cool trip as it just snowed most days I was there and I ended up doing a bunch of all mountain riding during a good snowfall with John.  It's a nice mountain.  Might make the trip to the Turner mountain thing this year as it is the same distance from me (Golden, BC/ Kicking Horse).  I unfortunately missed, again, a fellow "Canadian" from Revelstoke who apparently showed up the day after I left.

[Shred Gruumer]

12 minutes ago, carlito said:

Met Shred at the Whitefish get-together last winter - He was riding a pretty mint (for 1990?) Kemper Apex 170!  I thought it was snowing a little too much for that board's degree of assymetry! ha ha! 

Then...I think it was you with the board?  you were showing the laced edges , I think outside Hellroaring saloon..  Do you still build a board that can have the see through edges so we can see the lacing... just adds to it all... I would need a more hammer head Schtubby nose and square tail ..

Hmm..  we may have to talk.... may have to upgrade from my 1990 170 kemper apex

Edited October 2, 2018 by Shred Gruumer

[carlito]

5 hours ago, Jack Michaud said:

Tombstone, yes!  Thanks for that information.  How is it that I'm just learning of your boards now??  Do you have any stock shapes or is it all custom?  Looks like your layup differs from other carbon topped boards like Oxess - yours is glossy, theirs is rough, what's the difference?

Sooo.  Everything is custom.... Sorta.  Basically the website gives the "worst case" prices that mean that the board you want is completely new to my closet full of tooling and I have to make a new press/templates/core profile jigs yada yada yada.  Things get cheaper if you start pretty close to something I've made before.  Widths are totally changeable, as are sidecut radii, tapers, tip and tail shapes (plan) and stiffnesses.  Things start to get "worst-case" if we need to change edge contact length/amounts of early rise/decamber. 

My "all mountain" board is something I think more people (especially people who are used to carving to begin with) would like to see more of:  Something a little longer than usually spec'd, with a longer edge contact/effective edge than usual with some subtle decamber and a healthy camber between those.  Width to whatever angles/feet size work.  About 3 cm of setback and about 7 mm of taper (depending on length...) A bigger nose than tail for floatation.  Stiffness matched to weight/style.  Use it with plates/plastic boots - maybe reduce angles a bit from carving usual or a stiff/high performance softboot setup.  This sort of thing will do pretty nice closed off carves on any groomer run most hills have, and be totally usable off piste.  It isn't a MK on the groomed!  It's not a Swell-Panik in alpine powder!  But for most days, at most "big mountain" type hills where you might ride a narrow chute to access some soft pillow trees and then do a couple thousand vertical of groomed to the bottom it's a pretty sweet compromise

Try using the design page on the website https://exegi.ca/design/

This page allows someone to play around with a basic board and do some design tweaks and then see what the numbers will be in the end  (Or pretty close at least!  haha!)  Pick an all mountain board and drag the sliders to the personality/tendencies you want.  The specifications box will show a bunch of numbers.  The ones in white boxes can be tweaked by clicking on up and down arrows.  If you want to make the board longer simply click the board length up and it will stretch out the edge contact length and make the shovel/hips wider.  It's a pretty fun tool to fart around with and try different stuff to see how one change can affect other factors.  WARNING - even though I am pretty sure the math is right i am not a coder and the page is a little clunky - you can't adjust sliders once you have adjusted specs, for example, you have to start over.  The numbers come out right whenever I've tested the thing, but, mileage may vary.

 

[carlito]

25 minutes ago, Shred Gruumer said:

Then...I think it was you with the board?  you were showing the laced edges , I think outside Hellroaring saloon..  Do you still build a board that can have the see through edges so we can see the lacing... just adds to it all... I would need a more hammer head Schtubby nose and square tail ..

Hmm..  we may have to talk.... may have to upgrade from my 1990 170 kemper apex

Yep.  That was me.  Can still do clear bases.  Just have to order them/wait.  Sometimes they don't have nice stuff in clear - I have a soft spot in my heart for Isospeed 7500 clear sintered.  It's fast and hard, but not often available.  Mostly, bases are any colour you want as long as it's black (Durasurf 4001 graphite/sintered) LOL!  It is nice stuff and fast.  Almost as hard as the Isospeed stuff from my "unofficial" testing regimen.  So if you want to see the https://exegi.ca/tech/tech-kevlar-edge-lacing/ I can do you a clear base.  Damn, still need an image on that page (note to self).

Noses and tails are easy to customize.

Ha ha.  I've seen some of your other quiver posts.  Not your first rodeo in terms of upgrades from the Kemper!

 

[Corey]

1 hour ago, daveo said:

Some impressive heavy breathing there by the camera man.

^^ Guilty as charged.    I do not get along well with moguls.  There was no 'flowing like water', just survival.  It was more fun than I expected, and I've been in them again a few times since - by choice.  

[Shred Gruumer]

29 minutes ago, carlito said:

I can do you a clear base.

You had me at "Lacing"   where were you two months ago when I had money.... dam it...  Well bring some stuff to WTF in whitefish January 19th Feb 1st....