Felony charges for former Bomber owners

[daveo]

On 8/30/2018 at 9:26 PM, GeoffV said:

My heart goes out to Fin Doyle, he lost everything

Wait, what did Fin lose? What is everything? I was under the impression he sold bomber and opened a new business.

[Neil Gendzwill]

54 minutes ago, daveo said:

Wait, what did Fin lose? What is everything? I was under the impression he sold bomber and opened a new business.

He was never paid in full. Also I’m sure he wanted to see his baby carried forward successfully and honourably. 

[daveo]

20 minutes ago, Neil Gendzwill said:

He was never paid in full.

Right. Not exactly everything but yeah that sucks. Well, on the brighside, walker is resurrecting bomber soon, so I'm sure he can be happy and appreciate that.

[Corey]

6 hours ago, daveo said:

Right. Not exactly everything but yeah that sucks. Well, on the brighside, walker is resurrecting bomber soon, so I'm sure he can be happy and appreciate that.

Happy?  No.  Could you imagine building a company for 20+ years, then selling it to focus on a new company, then not even getting paid for the first company?  Awful. 

It is probably a bittersweet appreciation that at least his product will carry on.  

[daveo]

1 hour ago, Corey said:

then not even getting paid for the first company?

Didn't get paid ... at all?

Well to sell a business without receiving money isn't exactly the smartest business decision one could make. Still sucks, though.

[Jack M]

https://www.aspentimes.com/news/ex-red-brick-director-turns-self-in-at-pitkin-county-jail/

[davekempmeister]

1 hour ago, daveo said:

Didn't get paid ... at all?

Well to sell a business without receiving money isn't exactly the smartest business decision one could make. Still sucks, though.

plenty of businesses change hands on little or nothing more than a promissory note.  often this is preferable to another offer that includes some or even lots of cash, for many reasons and not all of them to do with money.    particularly if the buyer is thought to be a known quantity and is perceived as the most knowledgeable, most motivated or whatever.  countless variables, really.  I am sure Fin made what he felt was the best decision, at the time.

it seems impossible to me that any of this was "the plan".    i think two people met doing something that they loved, fell in love with each other, and dreamed earnest dreams.  later, reality hit hard and the pressures gave way to a first (really) bad decision.  then another and another.   

if the article is accurate, the improprieties were acknowledged, when confronted.  Angie may have been relieved, even.  they have not "fled".   by no means am i defending anyone but none of this takes the appearance of a diabolical scheme or con.  i understand that many were wronged, not least Fin.  theft of public funds and defrauding financial institutions is grave, yes.  but I do not believe that something like this has real malice, at it's center.  real malice is the guy who sits in the living room of a Senior Citizen with mild dementia (not in a nursing home yet) and high pressure sells them something that they do not need that takes 2/3 of their life savings.  that's who i reserve my anger for.

 

*********while i was typing, Jack posted the article that states; "ex red brick director turns self in at pitkin county jail"*********    

answering to charges voluntarily is not the normal m.o. of the hardened, career criminal set, believe me.  

 

 

 

[Jack M]

2 hours ago, daveo said:

Didn't get paid ... at all?

They were purchasing the company by making payments to Fin on a schedule.  At some point, they stopped making payments.  Several months elapsed with no communication, so Fin had to sue them.  Then they declared bankruptcy.  Fin is out over $200,000 in money that was owed to him - the equity he built over 25 years.  On the bright side, he's doing well in the solar industry.

Nobody knows what was in the Callens' hearts during all this. I don't believe it was malice. Just a perfect storm of extreme incompetence, negligence, ignorance, indifference, hubris, delusion (e.g. the career/life coaching stuff is just over the top - who talks about themselves like that??), downright stupidity, and finally panic and desperation. I do think they believed they were trying to save the business. Regardless, they hurt many people and didn't seem to care, at least not enough. They are guilty and owe a debt to society.

I am 100% with Fin.

[SnowNBeachAddict]

1 hour ago, davekempmeister said:

plenty of businesses change hands on little or nothing more than a promissory note.  often this is preferable to another offer that includes some or even lots of cash, for many reasons and not all of them to do with money.    particularly if the buyer is thought to be a known quantity and is perceived as the most knowledgeable, most motivated or whatever.  countless variables, really.  I am sure Fin made what he felt was the best decision, at the time.

it seems impossible to me that any of this was "the plan".    i think two people met doing something that they loved, fell in love with each other, and dreamed earnest dreams.  later, reality hit hard and the pressures gave way to a first (really) bad decision.  then another and another.   

if the article is accurate, the improprieties were acknowledged, when confronted.  Angie may have been relieved, even.  they have not "fled".   by no means am i defending anyone but none of this takes the appearance of a diabolical scheme or con.  i understand that many were wronged, not least Fin.  theft of public funds and defrauding financial institutions is grave, yes.  but I do not believe that something like this has real malice, at it's center.  real malice is the guy who sits in the living room of a Senior Citizen with mild dementia (not in a nursing home yet) and high pressure sells them something that they do not need that takes 2/3 of their life savings.  that's who i reserve my anger for.

 

*********while i was typing, Jack posted the article that states; "ex red brick director turns self in at pitkin county jail"*********    

answering to charges voluntarily is not the normal m.o. of the hardened, career criminal set, believe me.  

 

 

 

FYI The articles and the DA filings state the embezzlement started in 11/2015.  If I recall (Jack or someone else knows the date) I think they purchased Bomber in May of 2015 or close to that time period.  If this is correct the theft of funds started not long after they purchased the business (sometime within 6 months).  On top of this they took out a loan with Alpine bank when they purchased Bomber.  The fact the theft seems to have started not too long after purchasing the business and obtaining a loan against the business from Alpine Bank to me speaks volumes.  Also failure to fulfill orders running 90 days to prior to filing BK speaks volumes as does failure to claim some assets when the filed their BK forms.   

It is quite stunning she was trying to make money off of providing people with career advice.  What I find more troubling is per this website https://www.easybizstart.com/about-us/    she is also advising small business(s).

On a small positive note at least she admitted to the theft when she was fired from her job and she turned herself in willingly, though I seriously doubt she would have willingly admitted the theft had she not been caught.  The road to redemption starts with payment of the debt and whatever punishment the courts decide.  Everyone deserves a second chance once they have paid their debts to society.  I hope part of this is Fin getting some monies back and those people who's monies she and Jim kept are somehow repaid (though doubtful as the debt was discharged in BK).  They used funds from those orders to pay over 9K to the BK attorney.  It is all just sad.

Edited September 1, 2018 by SnowNBeachAddict

[softbootsurfer]

Yes, this is over the top as to how far they fell, yet I would say their intent, as others would like to guess, was never to Hurt Anyone...I wish I could have talked to them before the purchase...the Carving thing has been dying for the last decade, the cost required to pay Fins note and produce and disperse the product was never going to work for them...they rolled the dice as many are afraid to ever do in their lives, the price in Pain and Grief is immeasurable to Them and the Others involved...I wish Fin, Jim and Angie all the Best as they move forward in their lives...

Edited September 1, 2018 by softbootsurfer

[daveo]

10 hours ago, Jack Michaud said:

They were purchasing the company by making payments to Fin on a schedule.  At some point, they stopped making payments.  Several months elapsed with no communication, so Fin had to sue them.  Then they declared bankruptcy.  Fin is out over $200,000 in money that was owed to him - the equity he built over 25 years.  On the bright side, he's doing well in the solar industry.

Nobody knows what was in the Callens' hearts during all this. I don't believe it was malice. Just a perfect storm of extreme incompetence, negligence, ignorance, indifference, hubris, delusion (e.g. the career/life coaching stuff is just over the top - who talks about themselves like that??), downright stupidity, and finally panic and desperation. I do think they believed they were trying to save the business. Regardless, they hurt many people and didn't seem to care, at least not enough. They are guilty and owe a debt to society.

I am 100% with Fin.

Thanks for clearing that up. That makes more sense now. $200k is a fair bit to lose.

One thing I don't get is why didn't they use a financial institution to issue a loan instead of a private arrangement with Fin? To put it in the nicest way, did Fin put too much faith in them?

I've been ripped off in a similar way before, although for about 15% of what Fin was. Although, I was only 20 years old at the time. Had to go through drastic measures to recover the funds.

I remember my dad said, "Well, what did you expect? It is human nature. if you give someone a stick, they'll likely beat you. If you give someone a gun, they'll likely shoot you." Stuck with me.

9 hours ago, softbootsurfer said:

the cost required to pay Fins note and produce and disperse the product was never going to work for them...

Wish I knew more about the arrangement.

[daveo]

11 hours ago, davekempmeister said:

plenty of businesses change hands on little or nothing more than a promissory note.  often this is preferable to another offer that includes some or even lots of cash, for many reasons and not all of them to do with money.    particularly if the buyer is thought to be a known quantity and is perceived as the most knowledgeable, most motivated or whatever.  countless variables, really.  I am sure Fin made what he felt was the best decision, at the time.

it seems impossible to me that any of this was "the plan".    i think two people met doing something that they loved, fell in love with each other, and dreamed earnest dreams.  later, reality hit hard and the pressures gave way to a first (really) bad decision.  then another and another.   

if the article is accurate, the improprieties were acknowledged, when confronted.  Angie may have been relieved, even.  they have not "fled".   by no means am i defending anyone but none of this takes the appearance of a diabolical scheme or con.  i understand that many were wronged, not least Fin.  theft of public funds and defrauding financial institutions is grave, yes.  but I do not believe that something like this has real malice, at it's center.  real malice is the guy who sits in the living room of a Senior Citizen with mild dementia (not in a nursing home yet) and high pressure sells them something that they do not need that takes 2/3 of their life savings.  that's who i reserve my anger for.

 

*********while i was typing, Jack posted the article that states; "ex red brick director turns self in at pitkin county jail"*********    

answering to charges voluntarily is not the normal m.o. of the hardened, career criminal set, believe me.  

 

 

 

Thanks for that reply. I appreciate it. Don't think promissory notes actually happen where I am. Not usually anyway.

I would think that turning yourself in may have been advised by her lawyer to minimize her criminal charges. Break down into tears, show remorse, make as much right as possible from the outset of criminal proceedings etc.

May not be the thoughts of a criminal mastermind, but may be the thoughts of a smart lawyer getting her the minimum possible punishment. I wouldn't put so much faith into her actions right now.

Judging from her previous business, seems like borderline personality disorder to me, which makes sense why she would go through such lengths to make herself look like she is remorseful, if she knows there is no way out any more. Seems calculated to me.

Edited September 2, 2018 by daveo

[Buell]

2 hours ago, daveo said:

Thanks for clearing that up. That makes more sense now. $200k is a fair bit to lose.

One thing I don't get is why didn't they use a financial institution to issue a loan instead of a private arrangement with Fin? To put it in the nicest way, did Fin put too much faith in them?

I've been ripped off in a similar way before, although for about 15% of what Fin was. Although, I was only 20 years old at the time. Had to go through drastic measures to recover the funds.

I remember my dad said, "Well, what did you expect? It is human nature. if you give someone a stick, they'll likely beat you. If you give someone a gun, they'll likely shoot you." Stuck with me.

Wish I knew more about the arrangement.

It is common, in the US at least, for the owner (seller) of a small business to carry the note for the buyer. Many times it is the only option for the seller to get a decent price. This is because the buyer can rarely get enough financing from other outside sources like banks.

Ideally if the buyer cannot make the payments, the business goes back to the original owner in reasonable condition. Unfortunately for Fin, that obviously did not happen in this case.

I have seen this arrangement work out, I have seen the buyer fail and business returned to the original owner successfully, and I have seen a result very similar to this Bomber fiasco where bankruptcy wipes out the debt owed to the original owner. Sometimes you have to take a risk that might not work out.

[daveo]

10 hours ago, Buell said:

It is common, in the US at least, for the owner (seller) of a small business to carry the note for the buyer. Many times it is the only option for the seller to get a decent price. This is because the buyer can rarely get enough financing from other outside sources like banks.

Ideally if the buyer cannot make the payments, the business goes back to the original owner in reasonable condition. Unfortunately for Fin, that obviously did not happen in this case.

I have seen this arrangement work out, I have seen the buyer fail and business returned to the original owner successfully, and I have seen a result very similar to this Bomber fiasco where bankruptcy wipes out the debt owed to the original owner. Sometimes you have to take a risk that might not work out.

Right, I see. Thanks for clearing that up.

Perhaps selling it in a lower financeable lump sum would give a higher expected return, but hey I'm no expert on finance or these sorts of calculations (or... am I? /music plays). Oh well, I'm sure Fin calculated all his risks prior to selling it. Sure is a shame, though.

I hope Angie and Jim both get back on their feet and Fin moves on to something greater.

Edited September 2, 2018 by daveo

[Buell]

39 minutes ago, daveo said:

Right, I see. Thanks for clearing that up.

Perhaps selling it in a lower financeable lump sum would give a higher expected return, but hey I'm no expert on finance or these sorts of calculations (or... am I? /music plays). Oh well, I'm sure Fin calculated all his risks prior to selling it. Sure is a shame, though.

I hope Angie and Jim both get back on their feet and Fin moves on to something greater.

The ideal is a buyer that can pay cash, or at least pay cash for the purchase amount that exceeds the amount they can get from a loan from a financial institution. I believe the Callens had a $50,000 loan from a bank and $200,000 from Fin. That tells me that the Callens could only get $50,000 in financing from sources other than Fin. I assume Fin sold to the best buyer he could find. I don't know how much cash the Callens put down, but if Fin were to accept the lower financeable lump sum, $50,000 + any cash the Callens put down, that probably isn't much and he would not have received the additional $200,000 anyway. Might as well take the risk and hopefully get the business back if things go south.

It is just part of selling a small business here in the US. Financing for buying a business is really tight and you cannot get anywhere near the purchase price with unsecured loans. Probably because a lot of purchases of small businesses fail and banks don't want to lose money.

[queequeg]

This whole thing is a ****ing bummer, and sad for all involved.

I really want to convince myself that this is a matter of slippery-slope bad decisions cascading into an out-of-control runaway-train disaster ... that could happen to anyone naieve enough to take on this challenge without fully comprehending the risk and challenges.

But a number of the details suggest that this isn’t quite what happenned. 

[Corey]

If someone was planning to start a business to defraud a bunch of people/entities, I'd hope they pick something other than a tiny niche market.  What's the total customer base for Bomber? 200 people? 

There's no way this was Jim and Angie's plan from the start; they're too smart for that. But apparently one bad decision led to another, and another... 

[queequeg]

12 hours ago, Corey said:

If someone was planning to start a business to defraud a bunch of people/entities, I'd hope they pick something other than a tiny niche market.  What's the total customer base for Bomber? 200 people? 

There's no way this was Jim and Angie's plan from the start; they're too smart for that. But apparently one bad decision led to another, and another... 

Totally agree, I don't think anyone planned for this to happen. Of course not, that would just be crazy. It's the extent of the criminal stuff that I am talking about. I think it's very easy in life to find yourself in a very bad position because of bad luck, bad decisions or both: and to adopt a somewhat Machiavellian perspective insofar as what kinds of desperate measures are justified to keep your head above water. But you get to a crossroads eventually—where the acts undertaken to protect yourself from your circumstances vastly overshadow the original problem and involve other innocent parties unwillingly. At that point you are deciding much more than how you are going to get yourself out of a sticky mess (that you probably realize is now out of your control). That is the point at which you are deciding what kind of person you want to be, because that is all you really have control over anymore.

The option to throw-in the towel, declare bankruptcy and admit that you failed before engaging in (pretty serious, if white-collar) criminal activity is always available, and totally honorable. That was always an option (and certainly one that would have been far less ruinous for all involved).

I feel really bad for Jim and Angie. I first met Jim randomly on Copper Mtn when he was helping to support a RTTC event in the very early season (IIRC). He had just driven there from Chicago to help with the event and was obviously just a guy who was super-stoked to carve and a total gentleman. I took my very first run at my very first ECES with Angie at Stowe in (2007?) and she was fun and helped to take the edge of intimidation of the event, as someone who was just getting back into hardboots and had a lot to learn and re-learn. They both seemed totally great. Jim was always super welcoming, gregarious and a total virtuoso when it came to burning high-speed turns. So yeah: I really want to think well of them, but the facts are difficult to ignore.

Judging by the evidence posted online it seems like Angie is taking most of the legal penalties for all of this, and we will probably never know how the details of this all played out, or about how much of it Jim was or wasn't aware of (though I think this sort of thing is probably REALLY) hard to hide. During the first ATC ... which I guess was somewhat of a postscript for SES ... they both did not seem like themselves. They both seemed super irritable, and stressed out: beyond what one would expect of just ... busy super stressed out small business owners trying to manage this big-ish event for the first time. It seemed pretty obvious that there was some other kind of trouble. I do recall Jim taking a more aggressive sales-oriented approach to stuff than I had ever seen, and I recall having the same thoughts as others regarding the van, website redesign, video productions, and the big tour of different mountains etc ... I figured they were in deep shit, but I never would have guessed that they would have undertaken a bunch of criminal activity to maintain the subterfuge that bomber was solvent.

Good people do bad things sometimes. We're all human ... but looking at the extent of the criminal activity it seems like at some point you've gotta call a spade a spade, we all shed a little bit of innocence when we do bad stuff. 

BUT: it also stands to bear that pretty much everyone included in this discussion is not in possession of all the facts (or even most of them probably). We all probably know very little, though some more than others (most of whom are not saying a peep). It just doesn't look good, given the information that is available online. There could be other information out there that would paint this in a totally different light, but I think it would have to be pretty overwhelming to make this look much different.

Mostly, this just sucks for alpine snowboarding. It makes us look like a mess.

[Carvin' Marvin]

Some of y'all are some really nice forgiving people. Makes me look like an unforgiving jerk. I'll just leave these here:

“When someone shows you who they are, believe them the first time.” -Maya Angelou

Regardless of their intentions taking the first 10k of taxpayer money, what about the next 150k? The money from their private investors? The commitment they made to Fin? The embezzlement seemed to start during the first season they owned bomber so the writing was on the wall early on yet they still continued the behavior. 

If they were really so concerned about the business then explain the extravagant spending on the big house, expensive bottles of wine, fly fishing and paddle board trips, etc.  They showed they were not willing to make any personal sacrifice for the betterment of the business, but instead stole money to just continue on. Read the articles again. Not all the money taken went into the business. 

I know that Fin and others sat down directly with the Callens to discuss how their spending is unsustainable and they just ingnored the advice and kept going with it.  Hubris at its finest, folks (have you read Angie's bio on her Career Benders site?).

I guess the reason I'm so personally upset about this is because I really liked Jim and Angie. However under the surface they were everything I stand against.  My wife and I grew up poor, and through years of hard work and sacrifice we have built ourselves a very nice life. They showed themselves to be the type of people willing to take from others as a shortcut to live a lifestyle they had not earned. 

End of rant. Sorry if I've rubbed anyone the wrong way but I had to get it out. 

[Mellow Yellow]

15 hours ago, Carvin' Marvin said:

Some of y'all are some really nice forgiving people. Makes me look like an unforgiving jerk. I'll just leave these here:

“When someone shows you who they are, believe them the first time.” -Maya Angelou

Regardless of...….

End of rant. Sorry if I've rubbed anyone the wrong way but I had to get it out. 

 

[JohnE]

When Jim & Angie took over the business from Fin, I thought: "This would be a very difficult business in the best of circumstances":

 1) A product called "Bomber" as in it never breaks. 2) A difficult product to evolve to add features to make enthusiasts want to buy new ones. 3) An aging demographic. 4) A sport which is not seen as "cool" by youngsters so little desire for them to pick it up. 5) A relatively expensive sport. 6) Difficult to find gear. 7) A seasonal sport.  Serious product liability.  etc, etc, etc. 

A young enthusiastic couple comes along and wants to turn their passion for snowboarding into a livelihood. 

Even if there was no bad intent from the beginning, this seems like a recipe for failure. 

 

Edited September 5, 2018 by JohnE
edit

[daveo]

And to add to that a very expensive business. How much did Fin want to sell it for? $250,000? I had no idea bomber was such a profitable business to ask such a high price.

[LeeW]

3 hours ago, daveo said:

And to add to that a very expensive business. How much did Fin want to sell it for? $250,000? I had no idea bomber was such a profitable business to ask such a high price.

If you've seen the CNC tool Fin had at the shop in S'thorne, you'd see why it'd be quite... pricey. Those tools aren't cheap. Quite sophisticated equipment he had. I recall he made a tiny metal motorcycle helmet out of that machine. That's how precise that CNC equipment was. So I can imagine the asking price to be quite astronomical but "affordable."

[daveo]

6 hours ago, LeeW said:

If you've seen the CNC tool Fin had at the shop in S'thorne, you'd see why it'd be quite... pricey. Those tools aren't cheap. Quite sophisticated equipment he had. I recall he made a tiny metal motorcycle helmet out of that machine. That's how precise that CNC equipment was. So I can imagine the asking price to be quite astronomical but "affordable."

Yes those machines sure do sound expensive, but...

19 hours ago, JohnE said:

1) A product called "Bomber" as in it never breaks. 2) A difficult product to evolve to add features to make enthusiasts want to buy new ones. 3) An aging demographic. 4) A sport which is not seen as "cool" by youngsters so little desire for them to pick it up. 5) A relatively expensive sport. 6) Difficult to find gear. 7) A seasonal sport.  Serious product liability.  etc, etc, etc. 

The above almost sounds like the $250,000 might never be able to pay itself back. Almost like it was overpriced. But then again I'm sure someone with such business prowess like Angie would have run the figures.

Shame bomber products never got traction within the world cup scene or a whole lot more may have been sold and business would have been easier for Jim & Angie. Shame because I'm sure they didn't intend to harm anyone from the outset.

Edited September 6, 2018 by daveo

[Neil Gendzwill]

Really, a quarter million is expensive?  That won't even buy you a decent house in my town.  That kind of money is usually a cheap franchise license, and wouldn't include the various tools, inventory and intellectual property that Bomber comprised.