Trying hardboots in the pow again

[queequeg]

I've been experimenting with softies for pow and soft/lumpy/tracked out snow for a few seasons. For the most part they were a big improvement over hardboots but nonetheless: Next season I am going to try and switch back to Hardboots for pow. My main reason for switching back are a few:

• bring two sets of boots/bindings to the mountain is a pain in the ass and murphy's law dictates that if I only bring one, I will end up needing the other. 
• softboot bindings are hella bulky (related to point 1)
• although I had an easier time in them than I did with my UPZ, I don't find them nearly as comfortable as I had hoped. 
• I very much dislike one-footing in softies.
• I have a tiny SF apartment (with a huge [by sf standards] walk-in closet for storing snowboards, surfboards, photography equipment), and storing two pair of snowboarding boots is irritating.

But if riding is the main point who cares right? All of that stuff is secondary no? I think I can get away with switching back to hardboots because I can switch out to red tongues and walk mode on my UPZ's for the pow days, and mount the softest F2 bindings on the pow deck. I will ride higher angles than what I was accustomed to with softies but I don't think that will be a problem. In the past when I rode plates in pow, I was in a downsized pair of UPZ that gave me great performance while carving but could be uncomfortable to say the least. My new boots are (WAY) more more comfortable which makes me believe in the possibility that this experiment won't be a total disaster. I generally ride with the stiffest tongues in the UPZ and in the past when I rode them in powder I did not switch them out for a softer tongue (not sure that was even a thing back then), so that is a key data point. Anyhow I'm wondering if many people are doing this too, switching out the red tongues for pow days and just traveling with one set of boots? I'm hoping it works out well. 

Edited April 27, 2018 by queequeg

[bumpyride]

Might not be what you're looking for, because I stay off the groomers unless absolutely necessary.   

Off piste almost all the time.  Riding in NOS Raichle 122s which are soft to start with a 3 buckle with no power strap.   I ride exclusively in the walk mode and using  F2 Sport (Blue plastic) Intecs.  What I've found that helps compensate for hard boots is to keep the top buckle pretty loose when I'm in powder or bumps.  As soon as the top buckle gets to carving tight, it's too tight and disrupts the flow that I need when in powder or bumps.

I switched my angles from 66/45 to 51/30 to compensate for the added torque on a wider powder/all mountain board.  Boot size is 26.5.  

 

[charliechocolate]

I would absolutely hate to swap tongues just because it dumps and I want to ride pow.

I ride 26.5 UPZ's with black tongues. As bumpyride's already mentioned, loosening the top buckle, and in our case the booster strap, helps a lot. Although, I keep the front boot locked and put the rear boot in walk mode.

[big mario]

Simple. Less cuff

mario

[barryj]

5 hours ago, charliechocolate said:

I would absolutely hate to swap tongues just because it dumps

Hey QQ,

I'm with CharlieC on this one!  No sure about UPZ's... but switching out "tongues" on Track 700's is not "plug and play"  and I would not want to be spending time going back and forth during the season.  

So, even "simpler" in my opinion............  have another (softer) boot altogether  just for your pow setup.  My pow specific ride is a Moss PQ60 with Track 325's with TD3 SW SI's with 3/3 cant disks at 55/50 angles (yes I'm a mutant and yes I've tried reducing angles on wide boards to no avail)  ......and it will carve and I ride  deep open pow or deep tree pow no problem.

You speak a lot about your "boot situation".... but no mention of the board your trying to make work with plates and hardboots for pow ??      

You could use one setup for everything but some facet of your riding and the board will suffer.  It was fun and less to deal with riding the Moss everyday in all conditions but I  was beating the crap out of my last Moss using it everyday/everywhere....... and as fun as the Moss is/was to carve and  use in the pow  there is no substitute for a big carving stick for hard charging carving!      

So I got more specific:   Pow = Moss PQ60 and a softer  flex hardboot and lower cants                                                       

Everyday work conditions, groomer carving to chop and slush = Swoard Dual II 168 Track 700's, TD3 SW SI's 3/6 cants       

Big GS turns in open terrain carving = Coiler EC SS 177 Track 700's, etc........                                                                                     

Hard charging (turny) carving in tighter and or congested areas =  Kessler 168, Track 700's, etc.......   

It might sound complicated but it has actually streamlined my riding selection..............it's either a pow day (setup) or not and either way it's always a "one set of boots' day!    On non pow days  I'll usually have a couple of boards along in the car or on the hill and start out on the big GS board when it's less crowded and switch to either  the turny Kessler or the All Mtn. Swoard as conditions/crowds and my legs dictate.

Hope this helps..................  don't give up on hardboots in the POW!

  

Edited April 28, 2018 by barryj

[BlueB]

I also ride same boots for everything. They are ski boots (oh horror!), but I unlock them to walk mode for pow and bumps. If the board is very big (Tanker) I might lock the front boot. 

My freeride/pow bindings are softer then my carving bindings and I use more splay and lower angles.  

[wantok]

I think you will like it. I hung onto hard and soft though because we get blower powder midseason and it’s nice to maximize the feel with soft boots while it lasts. Rather than go back and forth I switch over to low plate bindings for the last (warmer) half of winter. 

I picked up the UPZ red tongues this year and really appreciate the range of motion they bring on powder days. At lower angles they have a smooth familiar flow from heel to toe. Using walk mode on the front boot makes up for the steep foot bed too. I just lock the cuff once things get tracked out. Incidentally their “race heel” is lower than the stock heel if your front leg is burning out riding powder. 

I bring along a narrower board with taller bindings for groomers. Changing tongues on the (newer) UPZ has been quick and easy. 

[philw]

As per other posts, I use the same boots. I don't fasten the buckles very tight and sometimes they come undone and I don't notice, in powder. I do not use "walk mode"; I will notice something's off when it gets accidentally set. I think that means that sometimes I need the support of the back of the boot.

Having just rode piste today, I forgot to fasten the buckles tighter, and banged my toe on the end of my boot... once was enough, so I cranked the buckles a bit.

[west carven]

howdy queequeg

so why not just carve in softboots and ride pow... hardboot only when you know it's going to be good groomers...

[BlueB]

5 hours ago, west carven said:

howdy queequeg

so why not just carve in softboots and ride pow... hardboot only when you know it's going to be good groomers...

Or go radical, carve in soft boots and ride pow in hard boots! 

You get extra points if your softie angles are 45+ and hard angles duck

Edited April 29, 2018 by BlueB

[queequeg]

On 4/27/2018 at 2:30 PM, bumpyride said:

Riding in NOS Raichle 122s which are soft to start with a 3 buckle with no power strap.   I ride exclusively in the walk mode and using  F2 Sport (Blue plastic) Intecs.

Raichle 122s make a lot of sense for what you are doing, The whole point of this experiment for me is to just have one pair of boots or I would try something like that. I had a pair of those F2 Sports with the blue plastics, I think they'd be pretty ideal. I have a set of the F2 Carve RS bindings that are pretty much the same thing. My virus bindings would definitely be way too stiff for this. 

On 4/27/2018 at 4:17 PM, charliechocolate said:

I would absolutely hate to swap tongues just because it dumps and I want to ride pow.

Swapping tongues on the new UPZ is a trival one-bolt affair that can be done in a matter of minutes. IIRC, I don't even think it is necessary to remove the liner because the threaded grommet is molded into the boot plastic (and if it isn't I'll probably find a way to make it stay so I don't have to remove the liner). Swapping a single bolt the night before or morning of a pow day seems a lot easier than lugging around an entire extra pair of boots plus bulky softboot bindings all season in the off chance I will need them. 

23 hours ago, barryj said:

.... but no mention of the board your trying to make work with plates and hardboots for pow ??      

  

I have a pretty streamlined quiver (just three boards). I used to ride pow in a Rossi Judge but It was long in the tooth and not that great so I got rid of it. I have an arbor a-frame now that I find works pretty well but I would like a bit more board. I might sell the Arbor try out  Matts' cheater next year, or have Donek build me a board that is the perfect width.

23 hours ago, wantok said:

I picked up the UPZ red tongues this year and really appreciate the range of motion they bring on powder days. At lower angles they have a smooth familiar flow from heel to toe. Using walk mode on the front boot makes up for the steep foot bed too. I just lock the cuff once things get tracked out. Incidentally their “race heel” is lower than the stock heel if your front leg is burning out riding powder. 

I bring along a narrower board with taller bindings for groomers. Changing tongues on the (newer) UPZ has been quick and easy. 

My go-to carving deck is a Virus Berserker so it's plenty narrow. I like my bindings as thin and close to the board as possible for carving, I just ride higher angles so I don't boot out. Regarding the ramp in UPZ for pow: Yeah, I might have to get creative with cants to eliminate some of that if I really have to, but I did not find it to be a big problem in the past.

8 hours ago, west carven said:

howdy queequeg

so why not just carve in softboots and ride pow... hardboot only when you know it's going to be good groomers...

Lolz. I've had a few days carving in softboots. Mostly when I accidentally left my hardboots at the condo . I found I could do it much better than I expected in softies and had fun doing it ... but: I much prefer carving in hardboots and a long narrow board to doing it the other way. I can carve so much harder and faster in the hardboots, and I have more fun doing it. I also just don't find softboots to be nearly as comfortable as my new UPZ's. And again, part of my objective is to reduce the amount of equipment I am carrying around. 

A bunch of you guys have mentioned loosening the cuff on the boots. I tried that before on my old UPZs that were downsized but it was a not-so-comfortable option in those very tight and downsized boots (I was also still sticking with stiff tongue). Perhaps it will be fine in the new not-downsized boots that are hella comfy. I will experiment with it again but I suspect that the winning formula will be: snug but not even remotely tight cuffs, walk mode, red tongues and finger tight buckles all around. I will probably put some significant toe lift on the front foot and ride angles around 40deg --> 45deg. That will be my starting point anyhow. 

[west carven]

howdy queequeg

I am sad you sold sootboot bindings... there is a beauty in riding softboots that you cannot get in hardboots...

that little flexing of the ankles in powder... it feels more like surfing... again, having the right tool for the right job...

there is just too much power in a hard set-up... it always feels like your gonna stuff the nose in the deep pow...

but then, what ever you feel like doing... have fun...

[b0ardski]

IMHO a softer plastic shell surfs as well, as a soft boot carves; the trade off to have a one boot system for multiple boards to do it all, is negligible. Advantage hardshells hitting refrozen chunder under 8" of fresh.

I've pow surfed w/rubber straps and aluminum fins in basketball shoes at 0*/45* and railed groom on a skinny 185gs in skiboots at60/70 and split board in ATs at 30*/45*.

wore out UPSs,123s, 124s in powbumptrees as well as groom; use 324s for everything in between now and scarpas for skiing and bc, and use walk mode on the back foot for 25yrs on the whole mt, but locked on hard groomers.

I like 30/45 in softer 324 w/stepins for all mt riding in variable daily/hourly condition changes (which can swap tongues in seconds on the hill if they are in the backpack). There are extremes on either side of the spectrum, but my knees and hips do not like duck or paralell(0-5* splay)and I dare anybody to follow me switch(except Ryan).

If it feels like your gonna stuff the nose move your stance back and or change boards

Seems QQ was looking for something in the middle. 3 board Quiver covers it all pretty well.

Edited April 29, 2018 by b0ardski

[b0ardski]

all mt board from the day

[Corey]

What do skiers do? Meant as both a serious question and a joke... They seem to have fun in powder with their hard boots. 

I just don't ride powder enough to warrant a second pair of boots and custom fitting of them. I've had a few of my best days ever on a snowboard in powder with hard boots. 

[Beckmann AG]

29 minutes ago, Corey said:

What do skiers do? Meant as both a serious question and a joke... They seem to have fun in powder with their hard boots. 

You can probably see this coming, but:

If their boots/bindings are properly configured, they frolic.

If not, they struggle for a bit, then turn in their day ticket for a voucher.

For both snowboarding and skiing, the plastic should support laterally and to the back, and be compliant to the front. Otherwise, knee and ankle flexion as a means toward pressure modulation/suspension/equilibrium tends to lever the front end of the platform, and that can get ugly quick.

Edited April 30, 2018 by Beckmann AG

[Corey]

7 hours ago, Beckmann AG said:

You can probably see this coming, but:

If their boots/bindings are properly configured, they frolic.

If not, they struggle for a bit, then turn in their day ticket for a voucher.

Makes sense to me! After adjusting the forward lean on my front foot slightly and putting the back foot in walk mode, the equipment almost disappeared. I just had fun. 

That was 100% stock UPZ RC10 boots.  I do remember thinking I'd like a little less rear heel lift (I run 6 F&R).  

[Erik J]

I say stick with the hardboots in pow.

I found that altering my riding on a softer flexing board worked well. I was always on intec bindings with a softer forward flexing boot.

Pressing with my feet, riding from the ground up worked best for me. I stay light and soft when tilting the board over in pow. Imagine pushing against the snow like it's water instead of ripping a trench with force. 

[bumpyride]

Anybody that says you can't get the same feel in hardboots as softboots  in pow with the proper equipment and fit, hasn't dialed it in yet.  My boots/liners feel like bedroom slippers.  The liners feel as soft as anything you can get in soft boots.  I can get 6" of forward flex past the toe of my boot just standing without the heel coming off the floor.  I'm in ride mode and the top buckle is loose.  Everything in pow needs to be flexing in conjunction with everything else.

This is a crappy video, but then first day trying out a gopro.   4 to 6" of pow.  Everything I use is pretty loose.  Soft as you need till you need control.

 

[philw]

 Well if we're doing video then here's a 30 second one which you can see the hard boots working in, settings as above. 

Each to their own of course: almost everyone I ride with uses soft boots. I just can't be bothered with the things, which hurt my feet. I have experimented with no-boarding, which does work better in soft boots, no question. Functionally, I don't think there's a lot of difference: soft boots are clearly up to the job. As are hard boots... I would not evangelise to my soft boot mates or anyone else - use what you want to use. That's precisely what I do:

 

Edited April 30, 2018 by philw

[bumpyride]

14 minutes ago, philw said:

 Well if we're doing video then here's a 30 second one which you can see the hard boots working in, settings as above. 

Each to their own of course: almost everyone I ride with uses soft boots. I just can't be bothered with the things, which hurt my feet. I have experimented with no-boarding, which does work better in soft boots, no question. Functionally, I don't think there's a lot of difference: soft boots are clearly up to the job. As are hard boots... I would not evangelise to my soft boot mates or anyone else - use what you want to use. That's precisely what I do:

 

Absolutely.  I normally board with skiers.  Every once in awhile I'll find a boarder that's willing to ride off piste with me.  (Dredman)

The most proselytizing I do with any softboot boarders that I ride with, is to ask them if they ride switch.  If not I encourage them to try steeper angles. 

Riding in any conditions (with the exception of frozen and chickenheads) is possible, fun, and surfy in hardboots.  One just has to figure out what works.  

Nice video.  Will have to work on it.  I'm a little self-conscious riding with a gopro on my head.

 

[queequeg]

Wow — thanks for all the input and perspectives!

Well it's nice to see that a soft-hardboot approach is working well-enough for so many people. Hopefully I can make it work for me. After ditching the softboots I can fit my entire kit (snowboards aside, obvz) into a single bag that qualifies as carry-on, which is so great. 

Re: softboots and hardboots : I genuinely believe that this is a different-strokes-for-different-folks kind of issue. What works for one person, won't for another etc etc etc ... I switched to riding softies for pow on a JHMR trip I took awhile back and was very happy with the results initially. After I upgraded my UPZ, and up-sized to a more comfortable fit, I started to think about going back because of the replaceable tongues, and because having to lug all that extra equipment around was getting a bit tiresome. So I'm doing this despite having had a good experience switching to softies ... I'm just wondering if I can have an even better experience switching back (now that my boots are comfy and switching tongues is easy).

I am skeptical that I will be quite as nimble as I was able to go on softies in steep/tight trees — but as rarely as I end up in that sort of situation (and as much as I enjoy it) I think that might be an acceptable tradeoff and that I'll adapt and still be able to get it done. It's not difficult to head back to shells for pow because now that I've got a more comfortable fit on my hardboots: I really did find that the softies were pretty uncomfortable, comparatively speaking. 

Great video @philw — that looks like a good time!

[digger jr]

I’m also a hardboot pow guy. I’ve been softening the flex of my Suzukas with softer springs on the BTS. Used to ride with red cranked down, now on yellows with a lot more travel. I find I like it both for carving and pow now. Along with a flexy binding, like a F2 Intec Carve ,my pow stick is a pretty smooth ride. Plus step ins rule on powder days.

[b0ardski]

stepins rule everywhere but gates

[Corey]

Step ins rule in powder - but only with a Spike stomp pad.  I learned that one quickly.