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lonbordin

Locking the forward lean of the rear boot

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So in @bigwavedave's World Cup post Ester Ledecka's rear boot is "locked" into a forward lean position.

image.png.29eba170c8db52a2f64054a7d54d7b0f.png

 In the thread about surviving riding an SL board @barryj pointed out that Nevin Galmarini was riding modified BTS (screenshot below).

image.png.05c47f4c1fa4eac92ab9ef4a8ad17fa0.png

Nevin's looks suspiciously like a stack of washers.

So what is the benefit from locking your boot in such a forward position for the racers?

Edited by lonbordin
Can't they just bend their knee?

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1 hour ago, lonbordin said:

So what is the benefit from locking your boot in such a forward position for the racers?

You can lever the beelzebub out of the tail near the end of a 'turn'.

Probably necessary when jacked so far forward.

 

I knew a few telemark racers/enthusiasts that did that a number of years ago. Absolute hell on the knee joint, but for the short duration races, it provided some advantage.

Or so they claimed. Lead ski was doing all the work, rear ski was raking leaves.

 

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Look in the Galmarini video at 3:40 to see the extra bolts probably locking boot shell and cuff at a fixed angle. They're on both front and rear boots.

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 Not for all day “relaxed”  riding .  

Race boards, particularly GS boards, seem to have a bit of set back of the inserts,  necessitating the aggressive forward, go-fast stance.  I prefer to mount my bindings centimeter or so forward of the reference stance on race (GS) board for more relaxed ride. 

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11 hours ago, lonbordin said:

Nevin's looks suspiciously like a stack of washers.

So what is the benefit from locking your boot in such a forward position for the racers?

This, for 'Rec' riders, would be very Fatiguing. FROM HERE, your ANKLE is LOCKED in a BEND, so, guess what, MUSCLES must compensate!! YOU likely don't have THose QUads That Suck UP Those FOrces!.  But, for a RACER, this means that the GAS PEDAL is ON, DEEP, ALL THE TIME!! From Here, you can LAUNCH YOUR BODY MASS Forwards, into The NEXT Turn!  THIS IS WHY Rear Heel Lift is Excellent for better Carves. See, Hardboots, as good as they are at side-to-side energy transition, are MUCH BETTER AT FORE-AFT Energy Transfer. WE WORK a CAMBER to utilize the Energy implicit in a bent bow, but unlike a Ski, we COMPARTMENTALIZE the Energy along TWO POINTS OF RELEASE, under EACH Foot. If you get BEHIND your rear foot, can You contain this Energy? Not Likely! Thus, his rear boot cuff, Directs the Energy, Forwards, from what his rear leg can give; thus, BIG Quads.. I'll answer queries, but after 30+ years, it's, like OBVIOUS...

 

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14 hours ago, lonbordin said:

So what is the benefit from locking your boot in such a forward position for the racers?

In addition to the good stuff Eric Brammer wrote…

Some of the benefits: It helps 'balance the power' (see below), reduces the time it takes the racer to get into the optimum position for pressuring the toe-side edge, helps the racer achieve (and maintain) a position that overall uses a lower center of mass (versus being in a position that favors spending more time vertically upright), and it helps prevent/reduce extreme/excess pressure on the shin of the rear leg.  Take a look at the image of Jasey-Jay Anderson below…

JJA.jpg.c90cd52248872586f6ca2da5b7159399.jpg

In the image of Jasey-Jay's toe-side turn, focus on how hard/much he is driving his rear leg knee downward.  Imaging how much pressure (and possibly pain) he would feel on his shin if his rear boot were in more of an upright position.  Even when the boot is able to travel from a more upright position to the position it is in the picture - think about the advantage of starting out with the boot in more of the desired outcome position versus having to move the boot into that position.

Also, when you set the rear binding in a forward angle like racers (and many alpine snowboarders) use, it makes engaging the heel-side edge even easier and quicker, which then makes it take a little more time and effort to go from heel-side to toe-side than it would if the rear binding were at a very low angel (or at zero degrees).  Most snowboard race coaches (and racers) feel that having the rear boot at a more forward angle helps 'balance the power' (balances the time and effort it takes to move from edge-to-edge).

Other considerations: Even during an extreme heel-side race turn there's a lot less pressure on the boot cuffs (the upper back area of the boots) than there is on the front of the boots during a toe-side turn.  In order to increase (or get similar) pressure on the back of boots during a heel-side turn you would need to move your foot/toes downward (plantar flexion) and/or straighten your legs and lean backward - doing either (or both) would be really bad.  Because of this, some racers feel they don't need much (or don't need any) rear suspension/springs, and need very little (or no additional) rearward range-of-motion from the boots.

The Deeluxe RAB system that Ester Ledecka uses is kind of like an upside down version of Nevin Galmarini's modified BTS setup.  The RAB system uses a rubber/elastomer bushing on the top (instead of a spring) for the rearward boot pressure, and the adjustable forward flex spring is on the bottom.  I would not be surprised if Nevin Galmarini also has a rubber/elastomer bushing at the top of his stack of washers.

The image below shows a Deeluxe RAB spring on a Deeluxe Indy boot.

indy.jpg.b31aa60a6ed6b87daaa9c31af8db8cc9.jpg

Edited by noschoolrider
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11 hours ago, noschoolrider said:

The image below shows a Deeluxe RAB spring on a Deeluxe Indy boot

Yeah I have that very model of Indy in the basement... sold the RAB a long time ago on BOL.  I didn't remember the RAB being able to promote such a forward lean. Thanks for the breakdown.

16 hours ago, SunSurfer said:

Look in the Galmarini video at 3:40 to see the extra bolts probably locking boot shell and cuff at a fixed angle. They're on both front and rear boots.

Whoa... so @Beckmann AG has a disciple! Good eye @SunSurfer.

image.png.e498601697d7c9d52c79e23f285d1f23.png

I have to admit when I first saw this I said, WTF.  Then I went and looked at my old Indy shells... yup those bolts would be going through the cuff and through the lower boot shell.  So he's limited himself to only a few degrees of forward lean via flexing the shell... he's turned his 700s into stiff ski boots.  The RAB and the BTS are mostly window dressing keeping the shells aligned at this point?  I mean he might as well buy some Full Tilts and put a super stiff tongue on them. He'd have more adjustability in the forward lean and no rubber sole "slop".

I get the promotion of a racers position that said, I don't see racers that use the Northwave (https://www.mountain-slope.com/Point-951/) doing these types of modifications.

I wonder what Jasey Jay does to his UPZs... relevant video-

 

Edited by lonbordin
JJ sure looked smoother on his UPZs and that Apex X plate... will he win Gold again?

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11 hours ago, lonbordin said:

he's turned his 700s into stiff ski boots.

Might be mistaken, but wasn't that the year the 700 was exceptionally soft? Like stale calamari soft?

 

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I like Nevin's solution.  He locks in the minimum forward lean, but still has forward travel available in his BTS.  If both forward and backward travel are locked out, then the ankle hinge can't hinge and the only flex comes from deforming the shell.  Not good.  This is the case with the stock Deeluxe forward lean selector thingamabob.  I'm utterly confounded why they do this.  Those high-end boots should come with the RAB, standard.

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2 hours ago, Jack Michaud said:

I like Nevin's solution.  He locks in the minimum forward lean, but still has forward travel available in his BTS.  If both forward and backward travel are locked out, then the ankle hinge can't hinge and the only flex comes from deforming the shell.  Not good.  This is the case with the stock Deeluxe forward lean selector thingamabob.  I'm utterly confounded why they do this.  Those high-end boots should come with the RAB, standard.

Using only the video evidence it appears Nevin's boots have the original ankle hinge and a bolt through the outer and inner shell up higher... It appears that his ankle hinge cannot pivot or is very limited.

I completely agree about the stock angle selector... RAB should be default. 

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22 minutes ago, lonbordin said:

Using only the video evidence it appears Nevin's boots have the original ankle hinge and a bolt through the outer and inner shell up higher... It appears that his ankle hinge cannot pivot or is very limited.

Hmm, I didn't see that at first... perhaps that bolt up higher sets the maximum forward lean, and the BTS provides the flex in between min and max.  I would hope he's not simply locking out his ankle hinge altogether.  Why bother with BTS in that case?

I'm digging my UPZs with the stiffest tongues.  Looks like JJA agrees!  No need for BTS or extra bolts.

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11 minutes ago, Jack Michaud said:

I'm digging my UPZs with the stiffest tongues.

From what I could see from the recent videos JJA is wearing the 2017 UPZs with the Dark Grey tongue and the WC RCR race cuffs. I'd be surprised if he doesn't have the race springs in there as well. So SUPER stiff...  and here I thought my DeeLuxe 425 Pro's with Red spring BTS were fairly stiff, ha!

If he wins we'll all be able to get used Northwave's fairly cheap. :ices_ange

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^^

It's possible the cuff bolting was done after the BTS was reverse blocked, and he simply didn't feel like pulling it all apart again to remove the redundant parts.

Not like that small amount of unsprung weight is going to make much difference. And it's always a plus if you can keep your competition guessing as to what's going on with 'unusual' equipment.

The boot hinge may be effectively locked, but its so far forward already, how much more boot travel will he get before his ankle bones run into each other?

Further, he my be using his shin as a hammer on the toeside turn, in which case he'd want the cuff totally locked.

Edited by Beckmann AG
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So apparently he and his coach are of the thought that any movement of the ankle cuff is bad.  Extra screws between upper and lower cuffs, stiff tongues, and an aluminum block instead of springs.  Locked!  

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Definitely not an all day ride.  Great performance on a hard race course but would be hell on all but the most perfectly groomed "Hero" snow.

As I get on in years (and size), I enjoy cruising as much as charging every run.  I have gone to a much softer settings on my boots, Suzukas with BTS (yellow/blue). I find it much easier to vary the size of a carve and adjust for changing snow conditions with a little more boot flex.

My old Raichle 323's that have the cuffs pinned and a locked RAB tend to gather a lot of dust these days.

Trenches for All!

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19 minutes ago, Rusty Edges said:

Definitely not an all day ride.  Great performance on a hard race course but would be hell on all but the most perfectly groomed "Hero" snow.

As I get on in years (and size), I enjoy cruising as much as charging every run.  I have gone to a much softer settings on my boots, Suzukas with BTS (yellow/blue). I find it much easier to vary the size of a carve and adjust for changing snow conditions with a little more boot flex.

My old Raichle 323's that have the cuffs pinned and a locked RAB tend to gather a lot of dust these days.

Trenches for All!

Hear hear!  I'm a fan of softer boot flex.  Stock UPZ RC-10s, springs with zero preload.  I'm slowly destroying the lowest cuff buckle by smashing it into the ankle buckle.  

There's a limit though - I accidentally rode all day on my last day in Aspen with the rear boot forward lean unlocked.  I had a few moments where I hit my limit of ankle movement (dorsiflexion), which is unpleasant.  I just thought I was tired and focused more on riding with the soles of my feet rather than relying on the cuffs.  Someday I'll get smart enough to look at my boots when I feel that...  LOL!  

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@nevingalmarini Welcome to ASB, Nevin. Thanks for the clarification. Blown away that you would make yourself available to contribute to our discussions.

I love to understand my equipment. I understand the racer's drive for everything that gives extra speed.

Can you explain what it is about the rigid boot setup that gives you the extra speed?
Where in a racer's interface between feet and board edge do you believe flexibility is ideally located and why?

I suspect that many people would love to know your thoughts on this one too.

 

Edited by SunSurfer

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With a stiff boot I am able to cut into turns with more power. Every input I give will be transformed down to the binding.

The connection between boot and binding is where I have some flex. I don't know if this is the best solution, but it's how it is.

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On 11/16/2018 at 12:34 PM, Neil Gendzwill said:

Thanks for this info, Nevin.  If you don't mind replying, what are you using for bindings/plates/etc?

From his videos he uses F2's and Vist on his SL boards and AllFlex on GS.  I guess the F2's are the "flex" in his system.  His knees must do a lot of work!!! 😮  I'm tired just thinking about it.

Thanks @nevingalmarini for taking the time to post, much appreciated.

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I've never ridden nor considered riding with an unlocked rear forward lean. I would thing the suggestion that one can lever the bejesus out of the board is quite accurate. Last year I crossed paths with a guy from AZ who was amazed I ride with my boot(s) locked and that I was managing a 188. I guess that's where the 'levering the bejesus' comes in.

 

*sorry, beelzebub not bejesus.

Edited by FrankNBeans
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On 11/16/2018 at 6:34 PM, Neil Gendzwill said:

Thanks for this info, Nevin.  If you don't mind replying, what are you using for bindings/plates/etc?

I use the F2 Race Titanium Binding Size M and and either a extra stiff Allflex plate or the new Allflex spring plate.

My stance is 49.5 and I ride 55/50 degree angles. I have a big toe lift on my front binding and a big heel lift and a canting on my back binding.

On 11/16/2018 at 11:57 PM, Jack M said:

Thanks Nevin!  Do you use this boot setup for freecarving as well?  Or just racing and training?

I use the same setup for freecarving, but it's not ideal. I'll get myself a comfortable setup when I finish racing 😛 

Edited by nevingalmarini
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