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Jack M

UPZ RC10 vs Deeluxe Track 700

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I switched from Track 700s to the RC10 at the beginning of the 2016/17 season.  Out of the box, the RC10 is significantly softer in every way.  If your foot is not a perfect fit for your shell size, the stock liner will "squirm" inside the shell.  This has been reported by several users.  My foot measures 28.4cm, I'm in a 28 boot, and I got the squirm.  UPZ boots come with a spring system, Track 700s do not*.  The stock rigid forward lean adjuster on the T700 doesn't make sense to me.  It prevents the ankle hinge from hinging at all, so any flex comes from you deforming the boot.  The Track 700 comes with a good moldable liner much like an Intuition Power Wrap. The UPZ liner is moldable, but I wasn't inspired to try that.  I switched to Power Wraps which made a big difference.  Much better fit and performance.  In addition to fitting better, they also stiffen the boot, which is welcome.  After that I still needed more so I went to the stiffer gray tongue.  This was a big improvement too.  The standard black is simply too soft for me.  Felt like riding in walk mode.  This year I'm on the stiffest dark gray tongues and I'm loving them for hard carving.  For all-mountain riding they're almost too stiff.  I got the stiffer RCR cuffs, but I haven't tried them yet.

The fit of the UPZ is better for me, I get zero heel lift.  I would get heel lift in the T700s even with molded liners, and I would have to add those stick-on X-pads on the back of the liners.  They helped, but didn't completely solve the issue.  T700 heel lift seems to be a common thing.  I also broke a number of T700 ankle hinge bolts.  I would replace them but then the plastic of the boot itself around the hinge began failing.  I'm 5'11" 190.  If you're lighter you might not have that issue.  Other than all that, the T700s ride well and I enjoyed them for years.  With BTS red (stiff) springs installed I never felt a need for the race tongues.  I'm liking my UPZs better though.  The heel hold down is a significant improvement.  The overall fit is more racy, which is more performant, but I have to unbuckle them at the bottom of every run.  It's worth it though.  I've had them punched out for more width at a shop.

The UPZ heel is more forward under your heel than Deeluxe.  This reduces boot length slightly, but it also means that you have to offset your binding toe/heel positions to center the boot on the binding.  This also makes the UPZ heel higher.  I had to change from a 3 degree cant/lift disc under my front foot to a 6 degree disc to avoid front leg burnout.

So I guess if you want a boot that you can just take out of the box, mold the liners and start riding, the T700 is probably closer to being that, but you'll still have to replace the forward lean selector.  If you're willing to spend more for aftermarket liners and possibly stiffer tongues/cuffs, I think the UPZ has greater potential. I can see why more racers ride UPZ than Deeluxe.  I'd love to try the .951 but I just got the UPZs last year, and I like step-ins.

*Until Bomber BTS kits are available again, there is a Deeluxe version available at YYZCanuck:

http://www.yyzcanuck.com/shop/parts/deeluxe-lean-mechanism-spring/

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7 hours ago, Neil Gendzwill said:

Looks like yyz is sold out of the RAB. 

Bummer. That is a dealbreaker right there. 

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To be frank, the RAB didn't do much for me. At about 140 lb. or slightly above, it felt like the boot was a one-piece design, even with the softer springs. There is another spring system for Deeluxe available from a guy on the Swoard forum, though.

I also found the stock UPZ tongues (the black ones) rather too stiff, so I got the red ones instead.

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I'm very happy with my UPZs. I haven't had some of the experiences mentioned in Jack Michaud's review.

No liner squirm here. I'm also in mondo 28 UPZ (8.5/9/9.5 shell) with stock Flo liners (9.5). They felt slightly stiffer than the Deeluxe Indys (also Mondo 28) I had been using (blue BTS).

I used the Indys with Power Wrap liners. They were not particularly comfortable, due to my wide forefoot and the room sucked up in the toe box by the foam liners. And I had serious heel slop, so performance was definitely sub par. The UPZs w/Flos reduced both problems. I still get a little heel lift, but nothing major. Basically I don't think about my boots any more when I'm riding. No need to unbuckle, ever. But it sometimes takes a few tries to get the tongue in the right position. What works best for me is to leave the boots unbuckled as I walk through the lot. That lets things settle in. Then buckle up just before clipping in and it's good for the day.

There are three liners for this UPZ shell: 8.5, 9 and 9.5. Jack, which one did you use? Maybe you needed a thicker one?

As for heel height, I actually measured my UPZs and Indys and found that the UPZs had a higher toe as well as a higher heel. The actual ramp is a little less in the UPZs at this size (9 degrees for UPZ, 9.5 for Deeluxe). Maybe Track 700s have a different ramp from Indys?

For this year you can get "race heels" for UPZ which are lower (to match the Northwave boots).

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I'm into my second season on the RC10s (MP 27) and am also very happy with them.  I switched from Deeluxe Suzukas for what seems to be a prevailing reason: moderate heel lift in the Suzukas no matter what I did, and pretty much zero heel lift in the RC10s. 

I was OK with the stock Flo liners.  They weren't super comfy, but I didn't have the squirminess or other issues others have complained about.  I did heat mold them a bit with a hair dryer, which helped with a couple of minor hot spots initially.  The toe area fit was great from the beginning, which was not the case with my old Deeluxe (Intuition?) liners: with those when molding I had to use a toe cap + rubber wedges between the toes, and usually more than once to get it so my toes weren't super cramped.  

However, this season for the RC10s I went with Intuition Pro Wraps, for reasons most people have made the switch: claims of snugger fit, stiffer, better overall performance.  Initially I was tempted to go with the tried-and-true Power Wraps, but was concerned about crowding in the toe area.  Again, the stock Flo liner/RC10 combo was a perfect fit for me in the toe area, and I didn't want to lose that.  The Pro Wraps as described on their website fit my needs exactly:  "PRO WRAP liners are new to the Power Wrap Series, and are an excellent option if you require the medium body thickness of the original Power Wrap, but are looking for more room in the foot and toe box area."  The neoprene toe section of the Pro Wraps is very similar to the Flo liner. 

So for anyone thinking of Power Wraps or similar in RC10s but are concerned about crowding in the toe area, the Pro Wraps could be a great option (the Pro Tongues have a similar toe construction, just in a tongue version).  And yes, compared to the Flo liners, the Pro Wraps are noticeably more comfortable and snugger,  and perhaps a tad stiffer. 

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I made the switch from Track 700s this season to RC 10s with the black tongue and intuition power wraps.  I have mixed feelings on them but mostly positive.

The good: Heel lift is completely nonexistent compared to the deeluxes.   My feet feel completely locked in and comfortable which is probably the most important thing I need in a boot. My heel never fit right in the 700s and contour of the UPZs are much closer to my narrow heel and very wide forefoot.  I still want to get the forefoot punched a bit.

The bad:  I think the recessed heel is ridiculous.  It makes them difficult to center in bindings properly and frankly kinda dangerous to walk around in.  I feel like a pretty ballerina walking around on my tippy toes.   The internal ramp is excessive so I had to add some toe lift to my front and take some heel lift off the back to balance.  I dont like the flex pattern fore/aft or laterally as much as the deeluxes.  I don't care for the hard toe pads. The hard pads are slippery and don't flex as much in the binding (which I guess some people might like). I think the quality is about the same as deeluxe.

So as much as I don't like about the UPZs, the seated and secured heel trumps all the negatives.  If the internal structure of the 700s were closer to my foot, I would hands down still ride those.

Edited by Carvin' Marvin
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UPZ RC10 ramp angle - 2016 model, pivoting/gullwing tongue. 303-324mm 10/10.5/11 shell.

Measured the difference in sole thickness between heel and toe while checking Intec cable integrity and that all the sole screws were corrosion free and tight. With F2 Intec heel in place 52mm / 22mm, i.e. 3cm.

The heel units the boots came with are 3mm thinner than the Intec heels.

To put that in context, I have some home made lift wedges in my F2 Intec bindings producing approx. 6 degrees slope. The higher side height of the taller wedge is 2.7 cm. The thin end of the thinner wedge is effectively 0 cm.

So 6 degrees of toe lift under my front boot gives me a close to flat ramp angle 

 

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Update on my immediately previous post.
Found this xray image of a foot in a UPZ RC boot on the kimcarving blog site.

A little work in Powerpoint shows an effective ramp/zeppa angle of 11 degrees. Looking at the xray that's the slope between the heel and the ball of the foot. Forward of the ball the boot sole flattens out.

rVl1pxU.jpg

 

Thanks @daveo , followed up your hint below.

 

Edited by SunSurfer
directly link image

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1 hour ago, SunSurfer said:

Update on my immediately previous post.
Found this xray image of a foot in a UPZ RC boot on the kimcarving blog site.

A little work in Powerpoint shows an effective ramp/zeppa angle of 11 degrees. Looking at the xray that's the slope between the heel and the ball of the foot. Forward of the ball the boot sole flattens out.

https://imgur.com/a/aaOE8ga

 

Not sure if you're after this, but the image automatically embeds if you paste the actual .jpg url into the reply box 🙂

So if you paste in https://i.imgur.com/rVl1pxU_d.jpg?maxwidth=1920&shape=thumb&fidelity=high it'll look like this:

 

rVl1pxU_d.jpg?maxwidth=1920&shape=thumb&

Edited by daveo
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