Setup help. Need more "highback"

[JRAZZ]

I think I've got my setup pretty close to where I want it but still have one nagging issue.  I turn to the interforum in hope of a solution.

 

My setup is as follows (pics below):

Board: Steepwater Plow (25.5cm waist), Boots: Raichles 124s with BTS (the position is roughly equivalent to a lean of "4" on the front and "3" on the back).  Bindings are Cateks placed at 45/40 with ~2 deg lift on the front and 3 deg heel on the back.  No cant.

The cant mechanism on the boots was a major source of headache.  It would constantly slack off and give me maximum outward cant.  I JB-welded the sucker and now it seems to stay put.  However I can't get more inward lean, I'm stuck with straight up and down.

 

 

My problem: I run out of "highback".   Just like if this was a softboot setup and the highbacks aren't cranked forward enough.  I tend to straighten out my knees on heelsides, hilarity ensues.  Toeside is solid though.   Trying to crank down the forward lean on the front boot doesn't seem to do the trick and makes me extremely uncomfortable and unable to pressure the nose.  The problem is doubly exacerbated on a narrower board. 

 

My question to you all knowing internet is this: What do I do to help my heelside turn?  Do I cant towards the toeside on the front boot (inward)?  Do I reduce lift?  Mess with the rear boot?  Give up and side-slip?  Something completely different?

 

Let's for the moment assume that the gear is what it is.  I do have plans to upgrade the boots and do have a nicer board for when I get better(ish), but for now this is it.

[Beckmann AG]

Maybe swap out the 'backward lean' spring for a solid spacer of appropriate length?

[alpinegirl]

Drive through your feet as opposed to relying on pressuring against the boot cuff. 

Just slap a Nike emblem on your boots and do it!

What Beckmann suggested would definitely offer you a different input, however I would also explore my own body mechanics. Play around. Grab your toe edge with your back hand. Bend the knees while keeping your pelvis centered over the board and between your feet and inclinate for a challenge. Find that sensory feedback in your feet. It's the same feedback that you can get while doing "the norm."

 

[Corey]

With 45 degrees, the motion on heelsides is as much sideways as backwards with your knees.  Maybe try focus on pressuring the outside of your front foot and moving your lead knee sideways towards the snow?  A good positional aid in this is touching your front (left) boot cuff with your rear (right) hand, and doing this while your hips are pointing the same way as your feet or even towards the nose. 

[BlueB]

A tiny bit of outward cant on rear binding for starters, maybe? 

Or, simply increase the splay a bit. Your all-mountain versatility will increase too. 

[Eric Brammer aka PSR]

3 hours ago, erazz said:

Bindings are Cateks placed at 45/40 with ~2 deg lift on the front and 3 deg heel on the back.  No cant.

Go to using more heel lift from the bindings! Try flat up front, and 4-or-5 degrees at the rear.

 

3 hours ago, erazz said:

However I can't get more inward lean, I'm stuck with straight up and down.

Again, try a tad bit of canting from the binding. As for the boot cuff, I have used a thin, 1-1/2" rubber washer between the cuff and shell to help keep the cuff from sliding outward or downwards at the hinge-point. Thus, when the hinge bolt is tightened, it stays snug. 

[philw]

Airlines haven't lost my gear enough for me to really get "running out of high back" as a concept, but the other stuff I understand. That said, one video of you turning would make this all simple. 

As you point out, cranking the forward lean on the front boot reduces your ability to pressure the front edge. I ride with the front on minimum lean for that reason. What's the back set on? I have mine fully leant-forward, which works for me and is simple to work out.

I'm not a fan of cant unless your legs are known to be weird. I would not at all mess with that: the boots have those stupid controls on them, but they're a source of unreliability and nothing useful, to me at least. You don't need, in my view, more inward anything, that will just make you knock kneed.

[JRAZZ]

I tried to distill what I read here and try it out today.  My issue is not that I don't know I should bend more.  It's that I seem to not be able to.  

 

Glad to say I did have results though!  

Ended up just reducing the front lift by 1 degree.  That's all.  Amazing how such a small change makes such a big difference.  I was able to get much lower and angulate much better.  Definitely had a much more solid heel turn.   Best part?  Up until now I would have my back leg burning at me while the front was almost not in the game.  This time I was much more "balanced".   

 

I'm curious about the outward cant in the rear boot...  It felt as though my rear knee was right behind the front knee, e.i. not very stable.  Not horrible but I'm curious to see if the outward canting you speak of would make me more stable.

[BlueB]

3 hours ago, erazz said:

I'm curious about the outward cant in the rear boot...  It felt as though my rear knee was right behind the front knee, e.i. not very stable.  Not horrible but I'm curious to see if the outward canting you speak of would make me more stable.

As I mentioned earlier, I'd first try to drop the rear angle a bit, maybe 5deg or so, before trying outward cant. It has similar effect on the position of the rear knee across the board, but also gets the rear foot in a more stable position. 

[alpinegirl]

My point was to drive through the feet as opposed to relying on driving laterally against the boot cuff. That was simply it. Everything said about cant adjustments is true. 

I too have blown apart raichle cuff cants where they did nothing.

Sensory input from your feet is important. Cory made the point of feeling pressure on the outside of the front foot in your heelside turn. We have very sensitive feet for balance so take advantage of that.

[Eric Brammer aka PSR]

So, I said 'a tad of canting'.. Let me clarify... You're using Cateks, which, are awesome for little tweaks in stancing, such as heel or toe lift, but, also in cant adjustments. You need only to use a single thread's rotation on diagonally opposite screw posts to make a 1* differential. 

Now, 'Why' you'd cant at the binding;  Rolling the rear binding in+down at the Big Toe will let you recover from being a bit hip-behind-the-board, or let you more easily control a deeply pumped turn (from either pressure on edge, or, from bending a flatter board aft of the rear binding), thus making this a good adjustment to make on a board you'd use in softer snow conditions. 

Now, IF you're slightly bow-legged, You'd want to move the boot cuffs further apart (without widening your stance!), so, you'd want to see if one or the other leg bows out more. If you're fairly Equal in having a bow-legged bone structure, then consider rolling a slight cant on the front foot, Little-Toe Down and Forwards. A friend of mine, who's a Level 3 AASI Instructor, is quite bow-legged at his right (rear) leg, so he rides Cateks with a cant that rolls out+down at the little toe, but he does also use a bit of heel lift to 'post' off of when pumping through turns. 

Please consider using a full-length mirror, and view you, in the boots, on the board, from both sides, and from head-on. Go through the range of motions you'd use while riding. Look for positions of imbalance, where you cannot affect an opposite, corrective movement. Also note if any board deformation occurs from a fairly neutral upper-body position (this would show a bias in one edge, a twist of the board, or a bend in the length that is unwanted).

Re-read Erik's note on the BTS springs. I think that might be a boot-mechanical issue that's resolvable with only a few extra pieces that better position the springs (and/or, stiffer lower springs?). Or, ditch the BTS, and use the old 5-position forward lean slider for a positive rear-lean setting?

However you go about this, do the changes One At A Time, thus, you can correlate what-did-what, and create a foundation for solving the imbalance issue you're having. 

Edited April 10, 2017 by Eric Brammer aka PSR

[bigwavedave]

What about using softer (yellow) springs. Seems it would be a better match for those med flex boots and a board designed for soft snow conditions.

[JRAZZ]

23 hours ago, BlueB said:

As I mentioned earlier, I'd first try to drop the rear angle a bit, maybe 5deg or so, before trying outward cant. It has similar effect on the position of the rear knee across the board, but also gets the rear foot in a more stable position. 

That makes sense which makes me question it. :D

 

Seriously, what's the difference between canting outwards and dropping the angle?  What's the downside to reducing the angle?  I'm probably going to try it but just curious as to what the trade off is.

[BlueB]

Difference and potential downside is that knees don't track in parallel planes when you flex them. It can be weird for some people, but one gets used to it after a while. 

Other one could be overhang ofor the rear boot, if one used lots of splay. I use 15-20 degrees on freeride/pow setups and have small underhang forward and small overhang rear. 

[Eric Brammer aka PSR]

17 minutes ago, erazz said:

Seriously, what's the difference between canting outwards and dropping the angle?

Reduced heel lift will move your boot cuff rearwards along the binding's centerline, thus reducing Forward Lean and your balance point on Heelside turns will be 'deeper' into the turn, making for a more upright posture and a late-feeling turn. Canting will move the boot cuff diagonally either in-and-towards the heelside, or outwards and towards the tail. That will make your stance feel wider, 'tween the knees, especially.

[JRAZZ]

I thing we're talking about the binding angle e.i. going from 45/40 to 45/35 and not reducing heel lift.

[Eric Brammer aka PSR]

Oh, oops.  Yes, I LIKE reduction of binding angles, as long as the board width/carving style permits. I really think that being closer to a true diagonal is the best angle-set for hardboots, in that one then can still power-up the pressures on the tip/tail, while being also in direct control (down at the feet, where balance Starts!) of torsional twist and the use of Toe/Heel pressures. I've said as much numerous times, here, on Freecarve, and elsewhere. I only go above the mid-50's in angle if the Board's width dictates it, and, I lose about 20% of my riding options doing so, only gaining a smidge of edge-to-edge quickness, and perhaps a bit of thrust off the tail.

I ride my Tankers (quite similar to the Steepwater in mission intent) at around (in hardboots--Softie angles for them are quite changeable) 42*-48*F, and 27*-39* R, depending on snow conditions, mostly. My 'icon' photo shows it pretty clearly on "Suzie", my '00 Tanker 200cm : and I'll take that board most anywhere, as it is.

[crucible]

I have the same board, binding and boots for my freeride set up , and have them dialled in the following manner:

My height and weight- 5’9”and 145lbs, size 26.5  mondo

Front boot - blue BTS springs

Back boot lower spring yellow, upper spring blue

Stance width- 20.75 inches

Front angle 38 degrees

Back angle 25 degrees

I run a 1 degree upward angle on my front binding to give me some “gas pedal” leverage in quick edge to edge transitions, and a 2 degree downward angle on the back binding along with an inward 2 degree cant to align my hips above my knees. If you have really low volume ankles, stiffening the upper cuff of the boot with velcro or a voile strap can sometimes help as well.

 

Edited November 12, 2017 by crucible

[crucible]

You can see the Steepwater board in the foreground. Even though the bindings on it are Snowpros, you can see the relaxed angle of the rear binding vs. the more aggressive angles on the freecarve decks.

 

[www.oldsnowboards.com]

Have you tried softer BTS springs?  Red is STIFF!!    Adjust the forward lean of the upper cuff using the bottom nut on the BTS.    Sorry, didn't have time to read each post in the thread . Perhaps these were already mentioned.   

 

[Corey]

Can you clip in and stand with comfort in your living room?  It's not the end-all measure, but it's a good start to getting the right lift/cant setup on the bindings.  You have the most adjustable bindings on the market; use them!  ;)

For forward lean, you can turn the lower nut up on both boots to drive the cuff forwards.  This also stiffens the system though, so you may need softer springs if that's undesirable. I like more forward lean on the rear foot than the front one.  

When mid-heelside-turn, which direction are your hips pointing?  Most people revert to sideways hips, which leads to sitting on the toilet with straight knees.  Roll that rear hip forward and pinch the right side ribs into the right side pelvis (reverse sides if goofy-foot).  This tips the board up higher.  Check this picture from this thread for an excellent example.  You can clearly see his hips rolled forward to face the nose.  That's probably a more advanced turn than you're looking at, but the same applies even at less extreme lean angles.  "Pee on the nose" as someone wise said. 

[slopestar]

Stab that heel. Best advice I have ever received... and applied... bring your softies on sunday. Let’s play.

[JRAZZ]

3 hours ago, slopestar said:

bring your softies on sunday

We're on!

 

FWIW I found that the thing that was throwing me off was the lift up front.  I need a flat front binding.  No lean/cant/squish made a difference as big as leveling the front binding.  I guess you DO drive with the bottom of your feet.

 

I'll leave the stabbing of the heels to a certain odd person.  I hate the sight of blood.

[Odd Job]

Just Unicorn turn it.

[JRAZZ]

On 11/7/2017 at 2:00 PM, Corey said:

"Pee on the nose" as someone wise said. 

Tried that.  Patrollers didn't like it :D

 

All kidding aside, I tried to rotate my hips forward during a heelside and washed out the back foot instantaneously. Just raising my head and looking where I'm going (aka across the hill) helps tremendously.  I also see the benefits of "reaching for the knee" but the moment I tried to rotate my hips I washed out.  Any ideas?