philw Posted February 6, 2017 Report Share Posted February 6, 2017 22 hours ago, b0ardski said: .. I am a biased bastard but this looks like an uncomfortable and inefficient body ... Well a lot of snow-divers look pretty uncomfortable with their bottoms sticking up in the air - that he does not have. But yes, of course he's twisted. But with these people it's going to take a while. First, they remember what the edge is for, but they forget that being all twisted maybe isn't great. In a while, they'll work it out, and we'll have the new new race method all over again. It's so good they can repeatedly re-discover it. >>... I like soft snow and switch, so I'll never buy a board with a stubby nose or tail This season's Capita Spring Break has a big fat nose which I think you'd agree is stubby. In good powder it's irrelevant. I think noses mostly are - I can't remember having one which cause an issue. Well maybe there was one of those rocker boards (a Capita I think) with so much rocker that the nose would wander, but that's ancient technology. Don't worry about the nose, is my view. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buell Posted February 6, 2017 Report Share Posted February 6, 2017 19 hours ago, BlueB said: ... all these new shapes have a distinct kink in curvature transition, from sidecut to nose outline. It seems to be a fashion thing, but can not be very good for smooth ride. I mean, the race (and pow) board manufacturers spent decades to optimize that transition to as smooth and efficient as possible, shape. It was proven to work, now these clowns are back with bumpy noses :( I am not noticing a significant kink at the transition between the sidecut and the nose on this board design. I think many board makers understand they need to extend that transition a bit to make a board less hooky. The Niedecker Specter says it has a 7m radius. Like PSR says, the NS might be around 8m. The Amplid Pentaquark is a 9m radius. BlueB, I know you have plenty of different types of boards, but I wonder if the appearance of a kink is just the fact that these board have to transition from a tight to relatively tight sidecut into the nose radius and only have so much room to get it done if they want to maintain effective edge. It is interesting though that most modern SL boards are in the 9m range and seem to manage a more gentle transition to the nose. I am stoked to see this trend. I actually think that freestyle carving is a more apt term than carving because they are bringing a wide variety of types of turns to their runs down the slope and mixing carving in with other types of riding. Technique wise, my softboot carving is not that different than my hardboot carving and I am probably past the age (enough injuries already) where I am going to work on new carving tricks, but who knows. It is fun to see guys on the hill learning this stuff and if they are using imperfect "carving" technique according to us, so what. It is far better than another jibber / skidder coming within inches of me as they fly down the slope, unable to set an edge. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlueB Posted February 7, 2017 Report Share Posted February 7, 2017 2 hours ago, Buell said: It is interesting though that most modern SL boards are in the 9m range and seem to manage a more gentle transition to the nose. That's what I'm talking about! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buell Posted February 7, 2017 Report Share Posted February 7, 2017 46 minutes ago, BlueB said: That's what I'm talking about! I just compared my Amplid UNW8 (currently Amplid's carve oriented board) to my Kessler SL. Accounting for the slightly tighter sidecut on the UNW8, there is no difference in the transition of the sidecut to the nose radius. Of course the UNW8 has a nose and the Kessler has a very short nose so after the wide point (the end of the effective edge anyway), they are different. I still wonder if there is a bit of an illusion going on in the photos of next season's boards. We'll have to check when they are out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buell Posted February 7, 2017 Report Share Posted February 7, 2017 One of my favorite current softboot carving videos. Carving is trendy enough that I found it in an Onboard Magazine's "Art of Carving Compilation". 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
b0ardski Posted February 7, 2017 Report Share Posted February 7, 2017 22 hours ago, philw said: Well a lot of snow-divers look pretty uncomfortable with their bottoms sticking up in the air - that he does not have. But yes, of course he's twisted. But with these people it's going to take a while. First, they remember what the edge is for, but they forget that being all twisted maybe isn't great. In a while, they'll work it out, and we'll have the new new race method all over again. It's so good they can repeatedly re-discover it. >>... I like soft snow and switch, so I'll never buy a board with a stubby nose or tail This season's Capita Spring Break has a big fat nose which I think you'd agree is stubby. In good powder it's irrelevant. I think noses mostly are - I can't remember having one which cause an issue. Well maybe there was one of those rocker boards (a Capita I think) with so much rocker that the nose would wander, but that's ancient technology. Don't worry about the nose, is my view. your the the hardboot powder guru, and good pow can be ridden on a 5 foot 1x10 plank, but in 30 yrs of riding dozens of different boards, nothing ever came close to the tall tapered tip of the original grocer for surfacing to plane out 2' deep snow, there's a reason all modern pow skis have this feature. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eric Brammer aka PSR Posted February 8, 2017 Report Share Posted February 8, 2017 8 hours ago, b0ardski said: your the the hardboot powder guru, and good pow can be ridden on a 5 foot 1x10 plank, but in 30 yrs of riding dozens of different boards, nothing ever came close to the tall tapered tip of the original grocer for surfacing to plane out 2' deep snow, there's a reason all modern pow skis have this feature. Ah, but the '88 RaceRoom 215, THAT floated better than even the Safari 205! A friend of mine still has his '88 187 Room, just for Pow days (and, he's a Skier!) Yes, Taper matters! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
b0ardski Posted February 8, 2017 Report Share Posted February 8, 2017 weren't the 'rooms foam core? notorious for breaking and not for fakie, i'd rather have a doughboy 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eric Brammer aka PSR Posted February 8, 2017 Report Share Posted February 8, 2017 Yup, they were foam-core 'Slope Tools'. Inserts would spin, core-shots from woods riding...And, going Fakie was brutal, as the board wouldn't steer correctly at all. But, hey, a good decade passed 'tween Rooms and Doughboys. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
b0ardski Posted February 8, 2017 Report Share Posted February 8, 2017 bought my grocer with the shalom ski graphics in 92, carved like my 89 k2 tx and floated better than my 91 nitro diablo 186 ah the nostalgia looks like the new wave of carvers will never go long 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eric Brammer aka PSR Posted February 8, 2017 Report Share Posted February 8, 2017 I still have (and ride) the Nitro 186 Diablo, though mine was a '92-93 (green, with gold Dragons on it), but I have to use Burton Vari-plate Rat-trap bindings on it, or Elfgen tongue bindings (I only have 3 tongues left!). The 'Shalom Ski' graphic was Olsen's jab at Salomon for using his pioneering Cap Construction, where they bought a few of his boards to cut up in the bandsaw, to figure out what he was doing construction wise. As I recall, the '94-95 Salomon boards would split open across the width at the nose or tail. My Lib-Techs never did delam, although a '98 Gnu Stupid Cap 158 did chip badly my first day out, I guess I was too far up on edge... Still got my '96 Jamie Lynn, and miss my '94 Cummins 149, which was a lil' Gun of a board! I could toast Fogg Smith, on his LaCroix, while on that Cummins on a slalom course! It had legs! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
st_lupo Posted February 8, 2017 Report Share Posted February 8, 2017 5 hours ago, b0ardski said: bought my grocer with the shalom ski graphics in 92, carved like my 89 k2 tx and floated better than my 91 nitro diablo 186 ah the nostalgia looks like the new wave of carvers will never go long Good grief, did you have hard boots on the k2 tx?! I learned to ride on that board and kept pulling out the bindings (and I was only using Sorrells). At the end of my first year I wound up drilling out most of the boards pre-drilled screw holes and epoxying in blind nuts. It was not a very fast board after that :( Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billyt. Posted February 8, 2017 Report Share Posted February 8, 2017 Yeah they are trying to sell the the same shapes that we used to ride back in our day. Very late 80s to early 90s. Just like in surfing and windsurfing with multiple fin boards. Some of the latest whiz bang technology mixed with old school shapes. Put that board on edge when the snow is right and watch that sucker carve. I can't wait to get my Kemper Bullet down from the attic and really confuse them! The mountain really does not care what you ride on, just as long as you are having the most fun. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
philw Posted February 8, 2017 Report Share Posted February 8, 2017 Certainly the mountain doesn't care, but it's not true in my view that what you're riding on doesn't matter. It's critical : the wrong board can make people simply unable to ride in powder. I'm sure longer boards will come into fashion again at some point, although I don't really see the point in them myself. Taper certainly is what I like in powder. Shapes: I think that's part of the shift at the moment, people mucking about with shapes. That too will pass I'd say, although it's likely good for the business generally. I've ridden many shapes, they mostly ride the way they look, there are no surprises lurking there. As I said, in my experience specific nose [and tail] plan shapes are mostly irrelevant in powder - the overall feel (flex, camber profile) of the nose and tail are very important, but having a pointy nose feels no different to a blunt nose, to me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billyt. Posted February 8, 2017 Report Share Posted February 8, 2017 I know that there are many variables, and for sure, long powder boards rip and they definitely turn heads on that lift line. Get that flex right and it like a hot knife through buttah! I used to ride out west, Colorado, and you need the length to get going when the powder is deep. Generally speaking, it is good to see innovation and time will tell if it lasts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
b0ardski Posted February 8, 2017 Report Share Posted February 8, 2017 (edited) 7 hours ago, Eric Brammer aka PSR said: I still have (and ride) the Nitro 186 Diablo, though mine was a '92-93 (green, with gold Dragons on it), but I have to use Burton Vari-plate Rat-trap bindings on it, or Elfgen tongue bindings (I only have 3 tongues left!). The 'Shalom Ski' graphic was Olsen's jab at Salomon for using his pioneering Cap Construction, where they bought a few of his boards to cut up in the bandsaw, to figure out what he was doing construction wise. As I recall, the '94-95 Salomon boards would split open across the width at the nose or tail. My Lib-Techs never did delam, although a '98 Gnu Stupid Cap 158 did chip badly my first day out, I guess I was too far up on edge... Still got my '96 Jamie Lynn, and miss my '94 Cummins 149, which was a lil' Gun of a board! I could toast Fogg Smith, on his LaCroix, while on that Cummins on a slalom course! It had legs! my 1st year dragon graphic diablo had no inserts, it had aluminum screw retention plates under the bindings, mounted it myself w/sims roto cants. after too many cliff drops into heavy PNW mank, aka cascade concrete, the alu plate under the bindings bent and I had rockered tip and tail before it;s time, but the carveability went out window. Then I got the grocer, my 1st board w/4x4 inserts, made the rotocants work on the 12pack inserts 4 hours ago, st_lupo said: Good grief, did you have hard boots on the k2 tx?! I learned to ride on that board and kept pulling out the bindings (and I was only using Sorrells). At the end of my first year I wound up drilling out most of the boards pre-drilled screw holes and epoxying in blind nuts. It was not a very fast board after that :( no inserts on the tx (the 1st metal edged board I ever bought after demoing every board the rental shop had in 87&88) mounted duret rotateable strap binders with tele binding screws (really wide threads)and epoxy never pulled out, I was using merrel supercomps as hard boots, ended up cutting the high back and heel loop off, attached a cable for a heel bail and never bought strap bindings again. 3 hours ago, billyt. said: Yeah they are trying to sell the the same shapes that we used to ride back in our day. Very late 80s to early 90s. Just like in surfing and windsurfing with multiple fin boards. Some of the latest whiz bang technology mixed with old school shapes. Put that board on edge when the snow is right and watch that sucker carve. I can't wait to get my Kemper Bullet down from the attic and really confuse them! The mountain really does not care what you ride on, just as long as you are having the most fun. got a 180 bullet cheap about 94,what a plank, used my 1st gen scarpa terminators on it with no toe drag. Again no inserts so after remounting the rear binding twice to get back in the sweet spot the tail got noodley from the perforation. 2 hours ago, philw said: Certainly the mountain doesn't care, but it's not true in my view that what you're riding on doesn't matter. It's critical : the wrong board can make people simply unable to ride in powder. I'm sure longer boards will come into fashion again at some point, although I don't really see the point in them myself. Taper certainly is what I like in powder. Shapes: I think that's part of the shift at the moment, people mucking about with shapes. That too will pass I'd say, although it's likely good for the business generally. I've ridden many shapes, they mostly ride the way they look, there are no surprises lurking there. As I said, in my experience specific nose [and tail] plan shapes are mostly irrelevant in powder - the overall feel (flex, camber profile) of the nose and tail are very important, but having a pointy nose feels no different to a blunt nose, to me. the diablo, grocer and my beloved Identitys were all twins and all ripped in pow if you bumped the binders back a bit. My nideckers and steepwater are tapered and it's a plus in powder and super steeps. When I said blunt nose I meant this credit kipstar early rise reverse sidecut tips. like every modern powder ski in the world do matter, especially in 2+feet of maritime snow we get in the pacific northwest sorry for the blog, thanks for the trip down memory lane Edited February 8, 2017 by b0ardski 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neil Gendzwill Posted February 8, 2017 Report Share Posted February 8, 2017 Been years since I rode my 178 Race Room. The old Elfgen heel-clip bindings on it won't fit modern boots. I'd have to drag out my old pink Koflach Snowboarders if I were to give that one a go again. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
philw Posted February 8, 2017 Report Share Posted February 8, 2017 So yeah, here's Capita's powder board. Perhaps we talk at cross purposes. These work fine in powder is what I'm saying: it's what they're designed for. And it's light and fluffy which is perhaps why. Piste boards don't need noses for different reasons: you're riding them on the edge... But I'm sure this is all obvious. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buell Posted February 8, 2017 Report Share Posted February 8, 2017 A bit off topic. Not quite as extreme, but same concept. Amplid's new powder board. I think the blunt nose makes a ton of sense in powder. As long as the torsional stiffness is increased to handle the width and the bottom radius of the nose is smooth and gentle, it is a great place to get more surface area for float. Now you just need a twin tip version b0ardski and you can chop 20 cm off your board length for the same float! 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
b0ardski Posted February 8, 2017 Report Share Posted February 8, 2017 (edited) I'd love that amplid tip shape, just like my 92 sims fakie which was great in pow as well as easily controled tip butters on piste the squared off nose (and/or tail) at the end of a long taper and rise is great for pow, see kipstar's coiler pics above for what I meant by blunt. I agree that round or pointy end of the nose shape is not necessary in pow sorry for the thead drift now back to your regularly scheduled carving Edited February 8, 2017 by b0ardski Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
softbootsurfer Posted February 8, 2017 Report Share Posted February 8, 2017 Interesting...Float from wider noses...more surface area to stay up and out of the Pow...I am sure it is just me, but I dislike wide noses for that very reason...harder to get into the pow, while once below the surface they load up and hold you down...having skied as well for many years prior to snowboarding, there is no comparrison to how you can get down and into the pow on Skis opposed to snowboards and their huge amount of surface area which limits your ability to dive and fly like skis, as compared to floating around on the surface, of course super light Pow on a 50 degree slope allows even the Floaters to get into it, but those days are very rare here anymore...I contemplated a pow board that was more like a squal with the obvious flex differences...it is still in my head, as no one I know would rather be below the surface than on top actually even a lot of the newer skis that are so wide probably limit the ability to get into it as much as the skis I used over 35 years ago...just some thoughts...sorry to interrupt 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
b0ardski Posted February 8, 2017 Report Share Posted February 8, 2017 (edited) yes, I said float when I should have said quick surfacing. porpoising rather than planing on the suface Edited February 8, 2017 by b0ardski Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buell Posted February 8, 2017 Report Share Posted February 8, 2017 5 minutes ago, b0ardski said: I'd love that amplid tip shape, just like my 92 sims fakie which was great in pow as well as easily controled tip butters on piste the squared off nose (and/or tail) at the end of a long taper and rise is great for pow, see kipstar's coiler pis above for what I meant by blunt. I agree that round or pointy end of the nose shape is not necessary in pow What is old is new again in multiple ways it seems. If the blunt nose trend continues for a little while, I would not be surprised to see a nose as extreme as the Coiler in the pic on a softboot width board. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neil Gendzwill Posted February 8, 2017 Report Share Posted February 8, 2017 The Jones Flagship is a very similar shape to that old Sims. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
b0ardski Posted February 8, 2017 Report Share Posted February 8, 2017 except the sims fakie had hella camber from a volkl vert lam wood core Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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